iD influencing tagging

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iD influencing tagging

john whelan-2
I note that the matter has been raised in talk-de and mentioned in osm weekly.

Tagging is not always easy, but I do have concerns when iD is so commonly used but the recommended tags do not align with OpenStreetMap I'll say normals. 

Specifically one of my concerns is a semi-detached house is not recognised in iD only the more general tag house.

JOSM I think is much more open than iD but given the way OpenStreetMap functions I suspect ID is a much more closed environment. 

For example JOSM has the buildings_tool plugin, Africa has a large number of odd shaped buildings mapped in iD.

Thoughts ladies and gentlemen?

Thanks John


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Re: iD influencing tagging

Bryce Jasmer
Can you give some examples of what the OSM normals are and how iD differs from them?

Is there a bug against iD not showing semi-detached house? Can you provide the link(s) to the bug(s) so we can read what the discussion/rationale is for not showing it?

As for a building tool, is there any evidence one would be rejected if someone wrote and tested a feature and submitted a pull request?


On Sun, Apr 7, 2019, 5:44 AM John Whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I note that the matter has been raised in talk-de and mentioned in osm weekly.

Tagging is not always easy, but I do have concerns when iD is so commonly used but the recommended tags do not align with OpenStreetMap I'll say normals. 

Specifically one of my concerns is a semi-detached house is not recognised in iD only the more general tag house.

JOSM I think is much more open than iD but given the way OpenStreetMap functions I suspect ID is a much more closed environment. 

For example JOSM has the buildings_tool plugin, Africa has a large number of odd shaped buildings mapped in iD.

Thoughts ladies and gentlemen?

Thanks John


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Re: iD influencing tagging

Tomas Straupis
2019-04-07, sk, 17:47 Bryce Jasmer rašė:
> Can you give some examples of what the OSM normals are and how iD differs from them?

  There is no way (other than writing tags directly) to tag reservoirs
as landuse=reservoir (original and still wider used water tagging
scheme), iD insists on natural=water+water=reservoir.

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Re: iD influencing tagging

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Bryce Jasmer


sent from a phone

> On 7. Apr 2019, at 16:44, Bryce Jasmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Can you give some examples of what the OSM normals are and how iD differs from them?


from time to time the iD developers don’t like the established tagging and prefer to make iD tagging presets for new tags which they believe are better.
Now while everybody is free to use any tag she likes, I would not expect the OpenStreetMap-Foundation standard editor to introduce new tags through presets. Good practice for default presets (e.g. in JOSM) is to use tags that are already well established. Generally we want our tags to be standing on a broad basis, we encourage discussion prior to using them. The development team of an editor is typically too restricted to be considered a broad basis. Tagging discussions in Github are also defacto excluding Jane Mapper from participating (because she doesn’t get aware of it).

Cheers, Martin
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Re: iD influencing tagging

Bryce Jasmer
In reply to this post by Tomas Straupis
The wiki page for landuse=reservoir says:

"Description: Ambiguous and better alternatives exist, see water=reservoir"

So, is iD wrong to use this, or is the wiki incorrect?

On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 8:24 AM Tomas Straupis <[hidden email]> wrote:
2019-04-07, sk, 17:47 Bryce Jasmer rašė:
> Can you give some examples of what the OSM normals are and how iD differs from them?

  There is no way (other than writing tags directly) to tag reservoirs
as landuse=reservoir (original and still wider used water tagging
scheme), iD insists on natural=water+water=reservoir.

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Re: iD influencing tagging

Clifford Snow
In reply to this post by john whelan-2


On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 5:44 AM John Whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I note that the matter has been raised in talk-de and mentioned in osm weekly.

Tagging is not always easy, but I do have concerns when iD is so commonly used but the recommended tags do not align with OpenStreetMap I'll say normals. 

Specifically one of my concerns is a semi-detached house is not recognised in iD only the more general tag house.

John - did you look at Github issue 2776 [1] that discussed Semi-Detached?  I've never tagged a semi-detached house, but iD offers it as a preset. 

JOSM I think is much more open than iD but given the way OpenStreetMap functions I suspect ID is a much more closed environment. 

Can you help me understand what you  mean by iD is a much more closed environment? Are you saying because it is a browser based application it is more closed or???  When I look at the number of people that have created issues and the current pull requests it seems like a number of people are involved.

For example JOSM has the buildings_tool plugin, Africa has a large number of odd shaped buildings mapped in iD.
 
It seems to me that building shapes are more of a newbie issue  than editor issue. I look at each new editor in my state. Squaring buildings is one of the most common tips I give new mappers. Had they started out in JOSM, I suspect I'd still be giving the same tip. Not because of the editor but they wouldn't know to install and use the building tool. 


Thoughts ladies and gentlemen?

I believe iD has come a long way.  I'm using it more and more instead of JOSM. I applaud the speed at which Bryan and others respond to issues and have improved it. The original post on talk-de really seemed to be complaining that the development staff is paid. Maybe what we should be asking is "Should OSMF fund development of tools?" 


Best,
Clifford

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Re: iD influencing tagging

Tomas Straupis
In reply to this post by Bryce Jasmer
2019-04-07, sk, 19:06 Bryce Jasmer rašė:
> The wiki page for landuse=reservoir says:
> "Description: Ambiguous and better alternatives exist, see water=reservoir"
> So, is iD wrong to use this, or is the wiki incorrect?

  Wiki is incorrect. Even "creator" of "everything blue is
natural=water" agreed (in wiki discussion) that his scheme is in no
way superior to existing OSM water scheme and does not depreciate
established landuse=reservoir tag (and other tags like
waterway=riverbank etc.).
  And most importantly - mappers have "voted" with mapping more
landuse=reservoir (426 123) than water=reservoir (194 454) (even with
iD making it extremely hard for non experts to tag landuse=reservoir).

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Re: iD influencing tagging

john whelan-2
In reply to this post by Clifford Snow
>John - did you look at Github issue 2776 [1] that discussed Semi-Detached?  I've never tagged a semi-detached house, but iD offers it as a preset. 

I don't normally use iD but you must explain to me where iD offers it as a preset since I was unable to spot it. Stats Canada's project to map buildings is where the concern arose.  The more precise the detail the more valuable is the information. 

Open / Closed environment simply that iD is very widely used which means I think it should be held to a higher standard since its presets are generally the ones used.  OSM has room for discussion I maybe mistaken but I'm under the impression that the programmers here make the decisions.  Based on my programming background normally the technical authority is not the programmer.

In JOSM using the buildings_tool to map a line of square buildings takes two clicks per building and they are both square and correctly tagged.  iD takes far more clicks.  Squaring after drawing introduces a level of approximation.

Cheerio John

On Sun, 7 Apr 2019 at 12:12, Clifford Snow <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 5:44 AM John Whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I note that the matter has been raised in talk-de and mentioned in osm weekly.

Tagging is not always easy, but I do have concerns when iD is so commonly used but the recommended tags do not align with OpenStreetMap I'll say normals. 

Specifically one of my concerns is a semi-detached house is not recognised in iD only the more general tag house.

John - did you look at Github issue 2776 [1] that discussed Semi-Detached?  I've never tagged a semi-detached house, but iD offers it as a preset. 

JOSM I think is much more open than iD but given the way OpenStreetMap functions I suspect ID is a much more closed environment. 

Can you help me understand what you  mean by iD is a much more closed environment? Are you saying because it is a browser based application it is more closed or???  When I look at the number of people that have created issues and the current pull requests it seems like a number of people are involved.

For example JOSM has the buildings_tool plugin, Africa has a large number of odd shaped buildings mapped in iD.
 
It seems to me that building shapes are more of a newbie issue  than editor issue. I look at each new editor in my state. Squaring buildings is one of the most common tips I give new mappers. Had they started out in JOSM, I suspect I'd still be giving the same tip. Not because of the editor but they wouldn't know to install and use the building tool. 


Thoughts ladies and gentlemen?

I believe iD has come a long way.  I'm using it more and more instead of JOSM. I applaud the speed at which Bryan and others respond to issues and have improved it. The original post on talk-de really seemed to be complaining that the development staff is paid. Maybe what we should be asking is "Should OSMF fund development of tools?" 


Best,
Clifford

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Re: iD influencing tagging

john whelan-2
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
and I think this is precisely my concern.

Tagging is not always easy, highways in Africa are an example.  See a dirt track in Europe and its probably a highway=track.  In Africa it probably isn't. 

Cheerio John

On Sun, 7 Apr 2019 at 11:51, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 7. Apr 2019, at 16:44, Bryce Jasmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Can you give some examples of what the OSM normals are and how iD differs from them?


from time to time the iD developers don’t like the established tagging and prefer to make iD tagging presets for new tags which they believe are better.
Now while everybody is free to use any tag she likes, I would not expect the OpenStreetMap-Foundation standard editor to introduce new tags through presets. Good practice for default presets (e.g. in JOSM) is to use tags that are already well established. Generally we want our tags to be standing on a broad basis, we encourage discussion prior to using them. The development team of an editor is typically too restricted to be considered a broad basis. Tagging discussions in Github are also defacto excluding Jane Mapper from participating (because she doesn’t get aware of it).

Cheers, Martin

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Re: iD influencing tagging

Richard Fairhurst
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> Now while everybody is free to use any tag she likes, I would not
> expect the OpenStreetMap-Foundation standard editor to
> introduce new tags through presets.

It's been happening since Potlatch 1 came online in 2007, so you should have
had a few years to get used to it by now...

Writing software is an art, not a mechanical Turk where results of endless
consultations are fed robotically into a Javascript editor. The iD
developers are remarkably responsive to concerns raised about mapping
standards, much more than I ever was as P1/P2 maintainer and, dare I say it,
more than JOSM's maintainers have historically been. That they don't
mindlessly follow bad tagging practices, but think about the impact and
consistency of tagging, is all to their credit.

I don't follow that iD has any particular status because of its default
location on the edit tab: JOSM arguably has more "heft" because its bulk
editing abilities allow people to impose new tags by force of number, not to
mention you 'orrible lot forever bombarding the poor newbie to use JOSM or
else. ;)

cheers
Richard



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Re: iD influencing tagging

Yuri Astrakhan-2
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 1:48 PM john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Tagging is not always easy, highways in Africa are an example.  See a dirt track in Europe and its probably a highway=track.  In Africa it probably isn't. 

A "road is a highway" is confusing because the word "highway" has a different meaning depending on the region. Yet, tagging should not be ambiguous -- the whole idea about tagging is so that I (the consumer) can understand what you (the mapper) meant in the most precise way.  A good example is "denomination=evangelical" -- German speakers should not use it for "evangelisch" which stands for denomination=protestant. The word may be the same, but we treat "evangelical" as an ID for a specific meaning, rather than reflect local language customs.

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Re: iD influencing tagging

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by john whelan-2



Apr 7, 2019, 2:43 PM by [hidden email]:
I suspect ID is a much more closed environment. 
(...)

Thoughts ladies and gentlemen?
Have you tried opening issue on iD bugtracker?


Complaining on mailing list should be never done before exhausting more productive
methods for solving problems.

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Re: iD influencing tagging

General Discussion mailing list
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
JOSM has also done the same, and gone farther with creating new tags on its issue tracker.

Developing an editor requires making decisions and having opinions on OSM tagging. This in turn means getting it wrong sometimes.

On Apr 7, 2019 5:43 AM, John Whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I note that the matter has been raised in talk-de and mentioned in osm weekly.

Tagging is not always easy, but I do have concerns when iD is so commonly used but the recommended tags do not align with OpenStreetMap I'll say normals. 

Specifically one of my concerns is a semi-detached house is not recognised in iD only the more general tag house.

JOSM I think is much more open than iD but given the way OpenStreetMap functions I suspect ID is a much more closed environment. 

For example JOSM has the buildings_tool plugin, Africa has a large number of odd shaped buildings mapped in iD.

Thoughts ladies and gentlemen?

Thanks John


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Re: iD influencing tagging

john whelan-2
Developing an editor requires making decisions and having opinions on OSM tagging. This in turn means getting it wrong sometimes.

There is a concept of Threat Risk Assessment which more or less says to manage risk you take into account the impact if it goes wrong.  If we have individual mappers making decisions on tags then if they get one wrong no big deal the impact on the overall map is small.

With something like iD spoon feeding new mappers with suggested presets the impact is much greater if something isn't quite right or the "directions" are not crystal clear and let's face it not all mapper's first language is English and reading through instructions is not fashionable in some quarters.

I have two thoughts one is simply we have discussed the matter and accepted that the TRA is acceptable, the other comes back to your point about decisions being made.  Should there be a reviewing committee before implementation? This is a more formal approach than OSM has traditionally taken but we have grown in size and perhaps it is time to be more formal for somethings these days.

Cheerio John

On Sun, 7 Apr 2019 at 18:23, Paul Norman <[hidden email]> wrote:
JOSM has also done the same, and gone farther with creating new tags on its issue tracker.

Developing an editor requires making decisions and having opinions on OSM tagging. This in turn means getting it wrong sometimes.

On Apr 7, 2019 5:43 AM, John Whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I note that the matter has been raised in talk-de and mentioned in osm weekly.

Tagging is not always easy, but I do have concerns when iD is so commonly used but the recommended tags do not align with OpenStreetMap I'll say normals. 

Specifically one of my concerns is a semi-detached house is not recognised in iD only the more general tag house.

JOSM I think is much more open than iD but given the way OpenStreetMap functions I suspect ID is a much more closed environment. 

For example JOSM has the buildings_tool plugin, Africa has a large number of odd shaped buildings mapped in iD.

Thoughts ladies and gentlemen?

Thanks John


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Re: iD influencing tagging

Andy Townsend
On 07/04/2019 23:37, john whelan wrote:
Developing an editor requires making decisions and having opinions on OSM tagging. This in turn means getting it wrong sometimes.

...
With something like iD spoon feeding new mappers with suggested presets the impact is much greater if something isn't quite right or the "directions" are not crystal clear and let's face it not all mapper's first language is English and reading through instructions is not fashionable in some quarters.

That's not borne out by what I see with a DWG hat on - we get to see quite a lot of complaints about problems caused by new mappers, and complaints about mistagging due to an editor preset in iD is pretty rare.  New mappers making faux pas due to misunderstanding JOSM, on the other hand, is pretty common.  That doesn't mean that one editor is inherently "good" and the other "bad" - they're different tools for different jobs. 

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: iD influencing tagging

john whelan-2
This is good we have a quality control mechanism even if it is a blunt instrument, and we think the risk is low on the TRA side.

Thank you for your input.

Cheerio John

On Sun, 7 Apr 2019 at 19:07, Andy Townsend <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 07/04/2019 23:37, john whelan wrote:
Developing an editor requires making decisions and having opinions on OSM tagging. This in turn means getting it wrong sometimes.

...
With something like iD spoon feeding new mappers with suggested presets the impact is much greater if something isn't quite right or the "directions" are not crystal clear and let's face it not all mapper's first language is English and reading through instructions is not fashionable in some quarters.

That's not borne out by what I see with a DWG hat on - we get to see quite a lot of complaints about problems caused by new mappers, and complaints about mistagging due to an editor preset in iD is pretty rare.  New mappers making faux pas due to misunderstanding JOSM, on the other hand, is pretty common.  That doesn't mean that one editor is inherently "good" and the other "bad" - they're different tools for different jobs. 

Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: iD influencing tagging

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst


sent from a phone

> On 7. Apr 2019, at 21:08, Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> Now while everybody is free to use any tag she likes, I would not
>> expect the OpenStreetMap-Foundation standard editor to
>> introduce new tags through presets.
>
> It's been happening since Potlatch 1 came online in 2007, so you should have
> had a few years to get used to it by now...


Richard, you have great merit in the OSM ecosystem, and all my respect for your notable contribution to OSM, but you really can’t compare 2007 (a bunch of mappers having to develop yet tags for almost everything) with 2019 (a complex tagging scheme for many things is already established).



>
> I don't follow that iD has any particular status because of its default
> location on the edit tab: JOSM arguably has more "heft" because its bulk
> editing abilities allow people to impose new tags by force of number, not to
> mention you 'orrible lot forever bombarding the poor newbie to use JOSM or
> else. ;)


most new mappers use iD, I don’t think you can argue about this, and most mappers aren’t subscribed to any channel where they would get such advice to use JOSM ;-)


Cheers, Martin
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Re: iD influencing tagging

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Yuri Astrakhan-2


sent from a phone

> On 7. Apr 2019, at 22:23, Yuri Astrakhan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> A good example is "denomination=evangelical" -- German speakers should not use it for "evangelisch" which stands for denomination=protestant. The word may be the same, but we treat "evangelical" as an ID for a specific meaning, rather than reflect local language customs.


actually “evangelical” translates in German to “evangelikal”, which doesn’t seem to be very confusing. Someone thinking it means “evangelisch” is likely mapping in a domain s/he isn’t acquainted with.

Cheers, Martin
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Re: iD influencing tagging

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by Clifford Snow

Am 07.04.2019 um 18:12 schrieb Clifford Snow:
>  The original post on talk-de really seemed to be complaining that the
> development staff is paid. Maybe what we should be asking is "Should
> OSMF fund development of tools?" 

I think that isn't really a correct interpretation of the original
concern raised.

It was more (paraphrasing so I apologize if I'm mangling things too
much): the default editor on osm.org is in a privileged position and
gives who ever is in control of it has substantial power over the
project, this has always been the case and isn't something new (as
Richard has pointed out). The concern raised was that there are no real
checks and balances (not even the need to finance a living by a day job
as Richard had to do) wrt that power.

Tagging decision are what the following discussion jumped on, but I
don't really think that is so critical, there was a phase when there was
a couple of weird decisions, but in general these have always (just as
with JOSM) tended to affect low use tags. In the grand scheme of things
not really a big deal.

I would be more concerned about things being added to iD's functionality
that look like "good ideas" but haven't gone through a proper critical
(non-technical) review as in "do we actually want this feature and what
are the consequences of adding it". Two particularly problematic
"recent" additions: recording the last position in the walk through and
recording the number of warnings that have been ignored in changesets.
It doesn't really matter if this was a requests by the unknown entities
holding the purse strings, or if Bryan and Quincy simply thought them up
over a beer or similar, they still should have been discussed in a wider
(aka not just the OSM-US bubble) audience before the first line of code
was written.

Simon




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Re: iD influencing tagging

Yuri Astrakhan-2
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Martin, thanks for explanation, but my point still stands -- in tags, we treat words not at their own meaning, but as IDs that represent some agreed concepts.  The German wiki page has a warning about "evangelical", so it is likely not all German-speaking mappers are aware of the distinction, or know English well enough to know this.  The same applies to highways - "highway" the word has different meaning in different regions, whereas "highway" the OSM tag should have just a single meaning that's clear to every mapper and every consumer.

On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 3:50 AM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 7. Apr 2019, at 22:23, Yuri Astrakhan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> A good example is "denomination=evangelical" -- German speakers should not use it for "evangelisch" which stands for denomination=protestant. The word may be the same, but we treat "evangelical" as an ID for a specific meaning, rather than reflect local language customs.


actually “evangelical” translates in German to “evangelikal”, which doesn’t seem to be very confusing. Someone thinking it means “evangelisch” is likely mapping in a domain s/he isn’t acquainted with.

Cheers, Martin

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