issues with the list of deprecated features

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issues with the list of deprecated features

dieterdreist
I just ran into this summary page for deprecated features:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Deprecated_features

There are a few issues which I would like to discuss:

1. amenity=artwork
Yes, tourism=artwork is the established tagging, but it has issues: artwork has nothing at all to do with tourism

2. amenity=car_repair
For businesses offering car repair, this isn't the right tag (shop is), but it doesn't mean there can't be an amenity=car_repair for place where you can repair your car.

3. amenity=creche and amenity=nursery
For both tags amenity=kindergarten is suggested as alternative tagging, which seems clearly wrong (kindergarten is usually for ages 3-6 while these tags are for ages 0-3). There is also the suggestion for amenity=childcare, which is featured by iD presets, but which doesn't seem like a great idea, because it partly overlaps with the much more used amenity=kindergarten, and because it has a very generic meaning and can be used for any place that looks after "young children" (i.e. also after school places, nurseries, kindergartens, places in shops that take care of the kids for a few minutes, etc.) and the wiki states it is controversial.

4. amenity=preschool
The suggested alternative is amenity=kindergarten, but these can be different things.

5. fenced=yes
The suggestion is for barrier=fence, but that would be a feature, while "fenced" is an attribute. If you don't want to draw the fence, "fenced" is clearly the better alternative.

6. man_made=cooling_tower
This is a very clear tag, the suggested alternative is man_made=tower with tower:type=cooling. I know there is some controversy about tower tagging in general, but if we recognize man_made=water_tower and power=tower good tags I don't see a reason to deprecate the more than 1000 man_made=cooling_tower[s] which are more concise and with no semantic issues or ambiguity.

7. shop=fishmonger
suggested replacement is shop=seafood which doesn't seem a good tag for places that sell fish but no seafood (i.e. sell fresh water fish). Admittedly there was few support for this point of view back in 2010.

8. shop=gallery
suggested replacement is shop=art which IMHO is a different kind of shop/place. An art gallery (the ones where the gallery owner is an intermediary between the artist and the collectors) is not just a shop where you go to buy art (these exist as well and usually sell reproductions of art or things that have been produced in slightly bigger quantities than just one piece, art books, prints, etc.).

9. shop=glass
suggested replacement: craft=glaziery
These are different things, a craft=glaziery is a "place where residential, commercial, and artistic glass is selected, cut, installed, replaced, and removed". A shop=glass is a shop were objects made of glass are sold. E.g. svarowsky, murano glass, etc.
Btw.: "glaziery" follows a different logic than most of the craft tags ("glazier" would be the usual value). There is also shop=glaziery which has only slightly fewer usage than craft=glaziery and which should probably be deprecated.

10. tourism=bed_and_breakfast
The suggested alternative is "tourism=guest_house+guest_house=bed_and_breakfast"
Every time a deprecated tag should be replaced by a tag which is so unspecific that people have seen to need to add subtags in order to express what it is (on the same level of specificity as the tag that should be deprecated), there is some problem. People know what is a bed and breakfast, the tag it in the hundreds and thousands despite it being discouraged and flagged as deprecated. Wouldn't it be easier to accept tourism=bed_and_breakfast, or are there other issues with this tag?

Please let me know what you think.

Cheers,
Martin





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Re: issues with the list of deprecated features

Mateusz Konieczny-3
15. Oct 2018 10:57 by [hidden email]:

1. amenity=artwork
Yes, tourism=artwork is the established tagging, but it has issues: artwork has nothing at all to do with tourism


As I understand you - in your opinion it would be preferable to end with amenity=artwork as a
preferred tagging.

I am not sure how it changes that we ended with tourism-artwork as a standard.

Also, "has nothing at all" is not true. Artworks are quite likely to be a tourism attractions.

 

2. amenity=car_repair
For businesses offering car repair, this isn't the right tag (shop is), but it doesn't mean there can't be an amenity=car_repair for place where you can repair your car.


Feel free to add that deprecation applies to businesses.

Though most of amenity=car_repair would be still businesses offering car repair, if you want to tag

something like that it would be preferable to find a new tag.


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Re: issues with the list of deprecated features

dieterdreist
Am Mo., 15. Okt. 2018 um 12:20 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]>:
15. Oct 2018 10:57 by [hidden email]:
1. amenity=artwork
Yes, tourism=artwork is the established tagging, but it has issues: artwork has nothing at all to do with tourism

As I understand you - in your opinion it would be preferable to end with amenity=artwork as a
preferred tagging.


yes


 

I am not sure how it changes that we ended with tourism-artwork as a standard.

Also, "has nothing at all" is not true. Artworks are quite likely to be a tourism attractions.




following this argument, we would have to tag the national parliaments as tourism=parliament because they are quite likely tourism attractions.


 
2. amenity=car_repair
For businesses offering car repair, this isn't the right tag (shop is), but it doesn't mean there can't be an amenity=car_repair for place where you can repair your car.

Feel free to add that deprecation applies to businesses.

Though most of amenity=car_repair would be still businesses offering car repair, if you want to tag something like that it would be preferable to find a new tag.



agree, this was one of the less questionable deprecations.

Cheers,
Martin


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Re: issues with the list of deprecated features

Lionel Giard
I am not sure how it changes that we ended with tourism-artwork as a standard.

Also, "has nothing at all" is not true. Artworks are quite likely to be a tourism attractions.




following this argument, we would have to tag the national parliaments as tourism=parliament because they are quite likely tourism attractions.

For tourism=* tag, for me, it is just a method to not tag each artwork with "tourism=attraction" i would suppose (as they are probably all an attraction), while a parliament could be a tourism=attraction, while another part of it (or another parliament building) is of no particular touristic value ! 

The tourism=attraction is more the general way of tagging a touristic attraction while, the specific tourism=* values are for things that are all an attraction ! 

BTW, another thing potentially using this "tourism=artwork" tag are statues. They have two existing tagging scheme : one using the "tourism=artwork + artwork_type=statue" and another using the "historic=memorial" + "memorial=statue". I understood it as the "memorial statues" have historic values and was another scheme already, but they can still be an attraction for tourism ! Nothing is easy ahah :p 

3. amenity=creche and amenity=nursery
For both tags amenity=kindergarten is suggested as alternative tagging, which seems clearly wrong (kindergarten is usually for ages 3-6 while these tags are for ages 0-3). There is also the suggestion for amenity=childcare, which is featured by iD presets, but which doesn't seem like a great idea, because it partly overlaps with the much more used amenity=kindergarten, and because it has a very generic meaning and can be used for any place that looks after "young children" (i.e. also after school places, nurseries, kindergartens, places in shops that take care of the kids for a few minutes, etc.) and the wiki states it is controversial.
 
For the amenity=creche..., in Belgium, we use the "amenity=childcare" for an equivalent to "creche/nursery". It is a defined tag on the wiki ( https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dchildcare ). I think, the usage still depend on the country. ;-) 

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Re: issues with the list of deprecated features

Tom Pfeifer
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On 15.10.2018 10:57, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 3. amenity=creche and amenity=nursery
> For both tags amenity=kindergarten is suggested as alternative tagging, which seems clearly wrong
> (kindergarten is usually for ages 3-6 while these tags are for ages 0-3).

I thought the consensus was here that it depends on the country. In Germany, I see mostly the "Kita"
(Kindertagesstätte) structure which in the same institution enrols age 0-6 in different departments
or groups, and a lot offer afterschool supervision (Hort).
This is easily expressed with the min_age + max_age tag, and some folks use after_school=yes.

tom

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Re: issues with the list of deprecated features

dieterdreist


Am Mo., 15. Okt. 2018 um 14:21 Uhr schrieb Tom Pfeifer <[hidden email]>:
On 15.10.2018 10:57, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 3. amenity=creche and amenity=nursery
> For both tags amenity=kindergarten is suggested as alternative tagging, which seems clearly wrong
> (kindergarten is usually for ages 3-6 while these tags are for ages 0-3).

I thought the consensus was here that it depends on the country. In Germany, I see mostly the "Kita"
(Kindertagesstätte) structure which in the same institution enrols age 0-6 in different departments
or groups, and a lot offer afterschool supervision (Hort).
This is easily expressed with the min_age + max_age tag, and some folks use after_school=yes.


For the German situation, KiTa and Hort should/could well be tagged with childcare, but "Krippe"? And if we decide to tag a Krippe (creche/nursery) the same as a Hort or KiTa, but with age tags, isn't that inconsistent with Kindergarten? From my point of view, Hort and KiTa are both childcare places which extend beyond the times of kindergarten and school (and are after those, typically), while a Krippe is for babies up to 3 years and is more like a Kindergarten, apart from the age. It would really be much more logical and easier to introduce / accept nurseries (there's a reason there is a specific term for this in language, no?), then throw most but not all of "child-related-stuff" in the same cauldron where you will have to dig for age group and other specfic tags in order to make sense of it.

Cheers,
Martin



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Re: issues with the list of deprecated features

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
15. Oct 2018 12:27 by [hidden email]:

I am not sure how it changes that we ended with tourism-artwork as a standard.

Also, "has nothing at all" is not true. Artworks are quite likely to be a tourism attractions.


following this argument, we would have to tag the national parliaments as tourism=parliament because they are quite likely tourism attractions.


I never said that it is a good idea, just that  "has nothing at all" is not true.


And now I am scared to check how parliaments are tagged, I would not be surprised by

tourism=parliament.


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Re: issues with the list of deprecated features

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Lionel Giard
Am Mo., 15. Okt. 2018 um 13:55 Uhr schrieb Lionel Giard <[hidden email]>:

For tourism=* tag, for me, it is just a method to not tag each artwork with "tourism=attraction" i would suppose (as they are probably all an attraction), while a parliament could be a tourism=attraction, while another part of it (or another parliament building) is of no particular touristic value ! 


I am pretty sure it is the opposite way: all parliaments (or almost) are tourist attractions, but most public art isn't. Just a few examples of things that can undoubtfully (I think?) be considered artwork, and are clearly no tourist attractions. And these are even sculptures set up by the government at prominent places, not graffiti informally applied under dark bridges or something like this.
....


Cheers,
Martin
 

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Re: issues with the list of deprecated features

Georg Feddern-2
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Am 15.10.2018 um 16:38 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:


Am Mo., 15. Okt. 2018 um 14:21 Uhr schrieb Tom Pfeifer <[hidden email]>:
On 15.10.2018 10:57, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 3. amenity=creche and amenity=nursery
> For both tags amenity=kindergarten is suggested as alternative tagging, which seems clearly wrong
> (kindergarten is usually for ages 3-6 while these tags are for ages 0-3).

I thought the consensus was here that it depends on the country. In Germany, I see mostly the "Kita"
(Kindertagesstätte) structure which in the same institution enrols age 0-6 in different departments
or groups, and a lot offer afterschool supervision (Hort).
This is easily expressed with the min_age + max_age tag, and some folks use after_school=yes.


For the German situation, KiTa and Hort should/could well be tagged with childcare, but "Krippe"? And if we decide to tag a Krippe (creche/nursery) the same as a Hort or KiTa, but with age tags, isn't that inconsistent with Kindergarten? From my point of view, Hort and KiTa are both childcare places which extend beyond the times of kindergarten and school (and are after those, typically), while a Krippe is for babies up to 3 years and is more like a Kindergarten, apart from the age. It would really be much more logical and easier to introduce / accept nurseries (there's a reason there is a specific term for this in language, no?), then throw most but not all of "child-related-stuff" in the same cauldron where you will have to dig for age group and other specfic tags in order to make sense of it.

There is always a reason having a specific term for different parts of childcare - it is simply easier to talk about a Krippe(nursery), Kindergarten, Hort(after school club) instead of a childcare with age_group 0-3, 4-6, 7-14.
And it is quite logical to take these terms as tags - in the first attempt ....
But is it really easier to end up with three different amenities - and so with different POIs - for a childcare which enrols all age groups?
Nevertheless the min or max age sometimes differs at the same sort of institution - so you may look e. g. after a hort but still have to check for the valid age anyway.

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Re: issues with the list of deprecated features

Michael Booth
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Sorry, but bed_and_breakfast is not tagged in the "hundreds and
thousands" - it is in fact used less than 700 times worldwide (about 300
in the UK, including 10% of the total in one town alone!). And if you
look at the tag history graph you'll see it has never been above 750 at
any point.

This compares to guest_house which now has 114k uses (was 38k when B&B
was deprecated four years ago). It looks like the guest_house definition
includes B&Bs so there doesn't seem to be any point in having another
top level tag value. Most of the objects I've looked at can easily be
retagged as guest_house, plus quite a few are from the early days of OSM
before this tag consensus appeared.

On 15/10/2018 09:57, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> 10. tourism=bed_and_breakfast
> The suggested alternative is
> "tourism=guest_house+guest_house=bed_and_breakfast"
> Every time a deprecated tag should be replaced by a tag which is so
> unspecific that people have seen to need to add subtags in order to
> express what it is (on the same level of specificity as the tag that
> should be deprecated), there is some problem. People know what is a
> bed and breakfast, the tag it in the hundreds and thousands despite it
> being discouraged and flagged as deprecated. Wouldn't it be easier to
> accept tourism=bed_and_breakfast, or are there other issues with this tag?

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