leisure=garden for private front/back gardens

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Re: leisure=garden for private front/back gardens

dieterdreist


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> On 13. Jul 2019, at 19:55, Philip Barnes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> You can of course just walk across when there is a gap in the traffic, walking would be very restricted if you only crossed roads at crossings.


while I agree in principle, the legal situation in many countries is that you have to use dedicated crossings if you are near them. AFAIK it is something like 100m. Generally you will not be fined for crossing at red or crossing the road whilst not using a nearby marked crossing.

Cheers Martin
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Re: leisure=garden for private front/back gardens

Alessandro Sarretta
In reply to this post by Florian Lohoff-2
On 13/07/19 20:44, Florian Lohoff wrote:
> The same reason i do not map my kitchen sink as a
> natural=water/water=pond
>
> Its not for the public leisure.

I don't know if the issue here is public leisure (in this case it's
maybe better to change the key "leisure" with something else), but I see
some many pros in having private garden represented and tagged, e.g.
being able to map the quantity of green areas in a city (for climate
change, CO2 emission models, urban heat, ...) and differentiate public
and private green areas contribution.

Ale


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Re: leisure=garden for private front/back gardens

Warin
In reply to this post by Florian Lohoff-2
On 14/07/19 04:44, Florian Lohoff wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 10:17:18AM +1000, Warin wrote:
>> Some private gardens that front the street are publicly visible, I see
>> no reason not to map them.
>>
>> The 'usability' in this instance is visible and, sometimes,scents.
> The same reason i do not map my kitchen sink as a
> natural=water/water=pond
>
> Its not for the public leisure.

As a member of the public I see some private gardens as pleasurable - without going inside them but viewing them from outside.

So they form part of my 'leisure'.

Here local councils require a 'set back' from the road to any buildings, this area is 'used' to provide a 'street scape' that the public can see, if not access.

Usually a household sink cannot be seen from the street so is of no/little interest to the public.




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Re: leisure=garden for private front/back gardens

Pee Wee
In reply to this post by Marc Gemis


Op vr 12 jul. 2019 om 09:13 schreef Marc Gemis <[hidden email]>:
On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 8:50 AM Pee Wee <[hidden email]> wrote:

Why would a private garden require a different key? Do we tag a
private wood / forest in a different way than one that is accessible
by the public? Do private parking lots get a different amenity-key ?
No, we refine this with additional tags.
This method can be applied to private gardens as well.

 
That is a good question. I would agree with you if the k/v would be e.g. natural=garden. This describes what it is and not what it is used for. Leisure=garden does not only describe what it is (garden) but also what it is used for (leisure). If I look at all the other leisure values they give me the impression that they are meant for places one can go to recreate and mainly publicly accessible. One could argue that you can also recreate in your own garden but still these private gardens are a dissonant from all the other leisure values.

Cheers
Peter

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Re: leisure=garden for private front/back gardens

Pee Wee
In reply to this post by Marc Gemis



Why would a private garden require a different key? Do we tag a
private wood / forest in a different way than one that is accessible
by the public? Do private parking lots get a different amenity-key ?
No, we refine this with additional tags.
This method can be applied to private gardens as well.

regards
m

Forgot to mention that since people started to map  whole residential area's with leisure=garden even small completely paved strips in front of a houses are tagged.  To me this is no garden an no leisure either.  I think the current definition needs a change in order to include or exclude these paved area's (which ever the community wants).

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Re: leisure=garden for private front/back gardens

Pee Wee
In reply to this post by Pee Wee

 

1.       Has this issue been discussed before and if so … what was the outcome?

2.       If not… do you agree with me that private front/back garden should not be tagged with leisure=garden but with a non-leisure tag? (if so… any suggestions? And what about private "gardens" that are partially/completely paved?)


 

(PS: it is not my intention to discuss the relevance of tagging private front/back gardens. I just want to know how this should be tagged in case someone wants to. )


Cheers

Peter (PeeWee32)


The first part of question 1 was answered by Marc Zoutendijk on the Dutch OSM forum.  The mailing list can be searched so here are are results for leisure=garden.

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Re: leisure=garden for private front/back gardens

Peter Elderson
Residential gardens in Nederland, as along as people refer to those as "My front garden" even when completely paved to support one tree-in-a-pot,  are leisure things. From the air you commonly see rows of houses with strips of green in front and back, so it would make sense to tag the gardens different than the residential area. Access and use is mostly restricted, but that doesn't change the leisure function. You could discern types and qualities. I wouldnt go that far myself. 

When planning recreational routes, this would help me decide which areas to include.

Vr gr Peter Elderson


Op zo 14 jul. 2019 om 09:30 schreef Pee Wee <[hidden email]>:

 

1.       Has this issue been discussed before and if so … what was the outcome?

2.       If not… do you agree with me that private front/back garden should not be tagged with leisure=garden but with a non-leisure tag? (if so… any suggestions? And what about private "gardens" that are partially/completely paved?)


 

(PS: it is not my intention to discuss the relevance of tagging private front/back gardens. I just want to know how this should be tagged in case someone wants to. )


Cheers

Peter (PeeWee32)


The first part of question 1 was answered by Marc Zoutendijk on the Dutch OSM forum.  The mailing list can be searched so here are are results for leisure=garden.
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Re: leisure=garden for private front/back gardens

Warin
In reply to this post by Pee Wee
On 14/07/19 16:48, Pee Wee wrote:


Op vr 12 jul. 2019 om 09:13 schreef Marc Gemis <[hidden email]>:
On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 8:50 AM Pee Wee <[hidden email]> wrote:

Why would a private garden require a different key? Do we tag a
private wood / forest in a different way than one that is accessible
by the public? Do private parking lots get a different amenity-key ?
No, we refine this with additional tags.
This method can be applied to private gardens as well.

 
That is a good question. I would agree with you if the k/v would be e.g. natural=garden. This describes what it is and not what it is used for. Leisure=garden does not only describe what it is (garden) but also what it is used for (leisure). If I look at all the other leisure values they give me the impression that they are meant for places one can go to recreate and mainly publicly accessible.

OSM maps leisure=pitch in 'private' areas - eg football fields in stadiums and club grounds... these are not 'freely available' for all to use.
One could argue that you can also recreate in your own garden but still these private gardens are a dissonant from all the other leisure values.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:leisure
"The leisure tag is for places people go in their spare time."
Nothing here says it has to be 'open to the public'.
Most people go into their garden in their spare time. So 'private gardens' match the leisure key.


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Re: leisure=garden for private front/back gardens

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Peter Elderson


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> On 14. Jul 2019, at 10:15, Peter Elderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> From the air you commonly see rows of houses with strips of green in front and back, so it would make sense to tag the gardens different than the residential area.


While I am all in favor of being detailed with landuse mapping (e.g. not including public streets and sidewalks in residential landuse), I would still consider the gardens part of the residential landuse. Mapping gardens does not imply you have to exclude them from the landuse.

Cheers Martin
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Re: leisure=garden for private front/back gardens

Peter Elderson
That's what I meant.
Vr gr Peter Elderson


Op zo 14 jul. 2019 om 15:29 schreef Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]>:


sent from a phone

> On 14. Jul 2019, at 10:15, Peter Elderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> From the air you commonly see rows of houses with strips of green in front and back, so it would make sense to tag the gardens different than the residential area.


While I am all in favor of being detailed with landuse mapping (e.g. not including public streets and sidewalks in residential landuse), I would still consider the gardens part of the residential landuse. Mapping gardens does not imply you have to exclude them from the landuse.

Cheers Martin
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Re: leisure=garden for private front/back gardens

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by dieterdreist



14 lip 2019, 15:26 od [hidden email]:


sent from a phone
On 14. Jul 2019, at 10:15, Peter Elderson <[hidden email]> wrote:

From the air you commonly see rows of houses with strips of green in front and back, so it would make sense to tag the gardens different than the residential area.


While I am all in favor of being detailed with landuse mapping (e.g. not including public streets and sidewalks in residential landuse), I would still consider the gardens part of the residential landuse. Mapping gardens does not imply you have to exclude them from the landuse.
Yes, residential garden are clearly 
part of landuse=residential

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