map walthamstow - CANCELLATION (from me at least)

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map walthamstow - CANCELLATION (from me at least)

Saul Albert
Hi All,

After map limehouse workshop last weekend, a few setbacks:

1. the british library can't lend us their GPS units again
2. I'm knackered
3. Several people whose opinion I trust have expressed that it would be
better to wait for the new applet...

Sorry for the late call!

for the hordes of you who were gearing up.. if you still want to do it -
go! but I'm afraid I'll be painting my toenails on sunday...

X

Saul.
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-- http://chinabone.lth.bclub.org.uk/~saul/

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Re: map walthamstow - CANCELLATION (from me at least)

Lars Aronsson
Saul Albert wrote:
> After map limehouse workshop last weekend, a few setbacks:
>
> 1. the british library can't lend us their GPS units again

The webpage about the Limehouse event inspired one of my friends
to start contributing to OSM.  Hope it was fun.  It looks fun.  
If there are 500 pounds, you could buy some used GPS units from
eBay to use at events like this.  And some pizza to the people who
make it happen.

> 3. Several people whose opinion I trust have expressed that it
> would be better to wait for the new applet...

I don't like to wait.  Waiting assumes that the current applet is
totally useless, which it isn't (even though it is ugly), and that
the new one will be perfect from the start, which I doubt.  Since
I don't help to program the new applet, I continue to use the old
one.  I'm helping to draw northern Sweden, Helsinki, Tel Aviv,
Rotterdam, southern England, everywhere I can find uploaded
tracks.  I assume this effort will still be useful when the new
applet arrives.


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  Lars Aronsson ([hidden email])
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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Re: map walthamstow - CANCELLATION (from me at least)

Tom Carden
"Lars Aronsson" wrote:
>
> I don't like to wait.  Waiting assumes that the current applet is
> totally useless, which it isn't (even though it is ugly), and that
> the new one will be perfect from the start, which I doubt.

You're absolutely right.  Thanks for the vote of confidence too ;)

> Since
> I don't help to program the new applet, I continue to use the old
> one.  I'm helping to draw northern Sweden, Helsinki, Tel Aviv,
> Rotterdam, southern England,

How do you know what is a road, and what is not, without knowledge of the
area being mapped?  This is something which needs more thought, I think.
When we have satellite/aerial photos and old map scans in the applet it will
be easier to tell, of course.

> everywhere I can find uploaded tracks.

I've been sketching some ideas for how to work out where activity is
happening.  Apart from the uploaded GPX feeds, can you think of a way that
would make sense to report on edits?  By session (e.g. Lars added 53 points
and 23 segments at dd/mm/yyyy hh:mm)?  By location (e.g. 300 points added
today within 2 km of lat/lon)?  Images?

> I assume this effort will still be useful when the new
> applet arrives.
>

Yes, any data entered now will still work with the new applet.

Lars - you've used the applet quite a lot - if you have any hints or tips
you think would be worth putting on the page to help new users, please let
me know.

New applet ETA: August 1st.  Fingers crossed!

Tom.



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Re: map walthamstow - CANCELLATION (from me at least)

Lars Aronsson
Tom Carden wrote:

> How do you know what is a road, and what is not, without
> knowledge of the area being mapped?

In most cases that I've seen, it has been pretty obvious.  So far
the European map is dominated by Sxpert's tracks spanning the long
roads from Grenoble in France to Kirkenes in Norway.  Anyway, in
some cases I could be wrong.  For example, what I see in tracks
and draw as maps might be a temporary detour and not the main
road.  In that case, nothing should stop someone with better
knowledge from correcting the map.  That's the wiki principle:
edit this map.  Sometimes in a wiki, writing an incomplete entry
on something is a way to ask a question to the other users.

> I've been sketching some ideas for how to work out where
> activity is happening.  Apart from the uploaded GPX feeds, can
> you think of a way that would make sense to report on edits?  
> By session (e.g. Lars added 53 points and 23 segments at
> dd/mm/yyyy hh:mm)?  By location (e.g. 300 points added today
> within 2 km of lat/lon)?  Images?

Yes, this is a tough question.  Perhaps logged in users could see
color coded traces of recently drawn roads, with green for those
drawn in the last 24 hours to red for those added or modified in
the last 30 minutes.  Or you could select that you only want to
see one user's contributions, similar to the "user contributions"
link in the wiki,
http://www.openstreetmap.org/wiki/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=LA2

This doesn't answer how to tell which user drew a particular
segment.  But for that you would need some kind of "show history
of this object", like the wiki's history tab, which is available
for all objects, old and new.

One thing that could also be useful is to find out where there are
tracks that haven't been mapped.  If a track point is, say, more
than 200 meters from any line segment, it could be displayed in
red.  If I upload a new track log, parts that overlap with
existing drawn roads will be hidden, but the new parts would be
red (if I'm logged in).

> New applet ETA: August 1st.  Fingers crossed!

Hope I can show it to people at Wikimania on August 4-8 then.

I think that Sxpert's long roads through Europe will be good for
pulling new contributors into OSM, when they see that their city
is already "connected" to the big network, but not yet mapped in
detail.  That's why I link as many city names as I can from my
wiki page.


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  Lars Aronsson ([hidden email])
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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Re: map walthamstow - CANCELLATION (from me at least)

Tom Carden
Lars Aronsson wrote:

> Tom Carden wrote:
>
>> How do you know what is a road, and what is not, without
>> knowledge of the area being mapped?
>
> In most cases that I've seen, it has been pretty obvious.  So far
> the European map is dominated by Sxpert's tracks spanning the long
> roads from Grenoble in France to Kirkenes in Norway.  Anyway, in
> some cases I could be wrong.  For example, what I see in tracks
> and draw as maps might be a temporary detour and not the main
> road.  In that case, nothing should stop someone with better
> knowledge from correcting the map.  That's the wiki principle:
> edit this map.  Sometimes in a wiki, writing an incomplete entry
> on something is a way to ask a question to the other users.
>

OK, that makes a lot of sense.  Agreed on the wiki-ness of your approach.  I
guess I was just hoping that you weren't mapping central London for
example - I've lived here three years and I'd struggle to be sure what was a
road and what was a cyclist's short-cut or pedestrian route.

><snip>

Presentation and usability suggestions all noted, thanks!

>> New applet ETA: August 1st.  Fingers crossed!
>
> Hope I can show it to people at Wikimania on August 4-8 then.
>

Oh, the pressure!

(Once I hit the first release, it will of course be in SVN for bug-fixing
etc.  This "one man" development won't last long, with luck.)

Regards,

Tom.



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Re: map walthamstow - CANCELLATION (from me at least)

Lars Aronsson
Tom Carden wrote:

> OK, that makes a lot of sense.  Agreed on the wiki-ness of your
> approach.  I guess I was just hoping that you weren't mapping
> central London for example - I've lived here three years and I'd
> struggle to be sure what was a road and what was a cyclist's
> short-cut or pedestrian route.

London or not, this is where I lack some tools or guidelines.  
All the maps I draw turn up as black-and-white lines.  Despite all
the talk of "keys" and attributes, I have found no way (in the
website and applet) to indicate which lines are of which kind, or
that I should only draw streets proper and no walkpaths.  I have
come to adopt the convention of drawing motorways as two streets
next to each other, but this is not implemented everywhere.  In
some places, motorways have only been travelled in one direction,
so they appear as simple country roads.

For the moment I'm just "drawing lines", which could be country
roads, motorways, city streets, jogging tracks or bike trails.  I
assume I can add attributes in some future version.

There's no difference between London, Linköping, Luxembourg or
Lyon in this respect.


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  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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Re: map walthamstow - CANCELLATION (from me at least)

stevec-4
* @ 25/07/05 03:45:30 PM [hidden email] wrote:

> Tom Carden wrote:
>
> > OK, that makes a lot of sense.  Agreed on the wiki-ness of your
> > approach.  I guess I was just hoping that you weren't mapping
> > central London for example - I've lived here three years and I'd
> > struggle to be sure what was a road and what was a cyclist's
> > short-cut or pedestrian route.
>
> London or not, this is where I lack some tools or guidelines.  
> All the maps I draw turn up as black-and-white lines.  Despite all
> the talk of "keys" and attributes, I have found no way (in the
> website and applet) to indicate which lines are of which kind, or
> that I should only draw streets proper and no walkpaths.  I have
> come to adopt the convention of drawing motorways as two streets
> next to each other, but this is not implemented everywhere.  In
> some places, motorways have only been travelled in one direction,
> so they appear as simple country roads.

Lars,

I welcome all your comments. All of your criticisms are well known bugs,
or missing features. They're in the wiki and at the forefront of several
peoples minds. I personally devote much of my free time to doing a wide
variety of OSM things, as do others.

Still, this all takes time. We know WMS etc would be good. We know a
better applet is needed. We know there could be more documentation.
We're trying to get it all done.

The source is all available, the process of coding and deciding what to
work on is open. If there is anything you (or anyone) wants to work on,
you only have to say and things can be found. Server access can be
granted, subversion passords issued.

If not, thats cool too. Just hold off a little and sooner than you know
it we'll have things done for you :-)

have fun,

SteveC [hidden email] http://www.fractalus.com/steve/

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