motorcycle tagging

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motorcycle tagging

Frederik Ramm
Hi,

the DWG has received a complaint about user ti-lo/Rtfm's introduction of
motorcycle tags.

Until 03 April, the shop=motorcycle wiki page contained this:

> The following is a proposal to put this service variety into tags:
>
>     sale=yes/brand/used/no/... - sells whole motorcycles
>     rental=yes/brand/no/... - motorcycle rental
>     repair=yes/brand/oldtimer/no/... - repairs / maintains motorcycles
>     safety_inspection=yes/no - inspection of safety/emission regulation conformance
>     parts=yes/brand/oldtimer/no/... - sells motorcycle parts
>     clothes=yes/brand/no/... - sells motorcycle clothes / equipment
>     scooters=yes/no/only - to distinguish scooter shops, very useful in Asia
>     services=... - other services this shop offers

Rtfm (which is ti-lo's account on the wiki) then removed any mention of
these tags and the word "proposal", instead added a table

> Optional (compare with "Additional keys" in shop=bicycle)
> key values description taginfo
> motorcycle:sales yes/no/used sells motorbikes / used=only second hand / yes;used=both new and used
> motorcycle:rental yes/no/trailer motorbike rental / motorbike trailer rental (Both: yes;trailer)
> motorcycle:repair yes/no motorbike repair
> motorcycle:parts yes/no sells parts
> motorcycle:tyres yes/no sells tyres (may also be used in combination with shop=tyres)
> motorcycle:clothes yes/no sells clothes
> motorcycle:type

Rtfm proceeded to execute an undiscussed mass edit on the OSM database
which was reverted here:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/47664678

However:

* The wiki page has never been changed back
* Rtfm/ti-lo has continued to edit motorcycle shops around the world,
and whenever he touched one e.g. to change the spelling from "Harley
Davidson" to "Harley-Davidson", at the same time also replaced *all* the
old-style tags with his new-style tags again.
* ti-lo hismelf seems to be by far the most prolific user of these tags.

What we have here is not really a classical mechanical edit, but a
one-man crusade to push through their tagging scheme.

I'm not sure how to best deal with this. Normally we don't want to
over-emphasize the proposal and tag voting process and we often say "you
can just use a tag and it'll eventually be used by others too". But that
doesn't really apply to changing established tags. Even if it is for the
better - the complaint we have is really not so much about the new
tagging scheme but about the way in which it was established.

Opinions?

Should we revert the wiki page to the old version and revert all the
motorcycle:* tags that ti-lo changed from old-style to motorcycle:*?

Or ask him to run a proper proposal process until $DEADLINE under threat
of doing the above?

Or just shrug and let him have his way?

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: motorcycle tagging

Allan Mustard
Hmmm.  Having recently shepherded a proposal, and one which in the end was radically different from my original version due to valuable input from the OSM community, I say tell him to make a proposal and live with the results of voting or face wholesale reversion of his edits.  

My two manats’ worth.

Cheers,
Allan Mustard
apm-wa

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 4, 2019, at 4:04 PM, Frederik Ramm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> the DWG has received a complaint about user ti-lo/Rtfm's introduction of
> motorcycle tags.
>
> Until 03 April, the shop=motorcycle wiki page contained this:
>
>> The following is a proposal to put this service variety into tags:
>>
>>    sale=yes/brand/used/no/... - sells whole motorcycles
>>    rental=yes/brand/no/... - motorcycle rental
>>    repair=yes/brand/oldtimer/no/... - repairs / maintains motorcycles
>>    safety_inspection=yes/no - inspection of safety/emission regulation conformance
>>    parts=yes/brand/oldtimer/no/... - sells motorcycle parts
>>    clothes=yes/brand/no/... - sells motorcycle clothes / equipment
>>    scooters=yes/no/only - to distinguish scooter shops, very useful in Asia
>>    services=... - other services this shop offers
>
> Rtfm (which is ti-lo's account on the wiki) then removed any mention of
> these tags and the word "proposal", instead added a table
>
>> Optional (compare with "Additional keys" in shop=bicycle)
>> key    values    description    taginfo
>> motorcycle:sales    yes/no/used    sells motorbikes / used=only second hand / yes;used=both new and used    
>> motorcycle:rental    yes/no/trailer    motorbike rental / motorbike trailer rental (Both: yes;trailer)    
>> motorcycle:repair    yes/no    motorbike repair    
>> motorcycle:parts    yes/no    sells parts    
>> motorcycle:tyres    yes/no    sells tyres (may also be used in combination with shop=tyres)    
>> motorcycle:clothes    yes/no    sells clothes    
>> motorcycle:type    
>
> Rtfm proceeded to execute an undiscussed mass edit on the OSM database
> which was reverted here:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/47664678
>
> However:
>
> * The wiki page has never been changed back
> * Rtfm/ti-lo has continued to edit motorcycle shops around the world,
> and whenever he touched one e.g. to change the spelling from "Harley
> Davidson" to "Harley-Davidson", at the same time also replaced *all* the
> old-style tags with his new-style tags again.
> * ti-lo hismelf seems to be by far the most prolific user of these tags.
>
> What we have here is not really a classical mechanical edit, but a
> one-man crusade to push through their tagging scheme.
>
> I'm not sure how to best deal with this. Normally we don't want to
> over-emphasize the proposal and tag voting process and we often say "you
> can just use a tag and it'll eventually be used by others too". But that
> doesn't really apply to changing established tags. Even if it is for the
> better - the complaint we have is really not so much about the new
> tagging scheme but about the way in which it was established.
>
> Opinions?
>
> Should we revert the wiki page to the old version and revert all the
> motorcycle:* tags that ti-lo changed from old-style to motorcycle:*?
>
> Or ask him to run a proper proposal process until $DEADLINE under threat
> of doing the above?
>
> Or just shrug and let him have his way?
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: motorcycle tagging

Warin
I would like a 'discussion' with the user on the tagging list.

The tagging "sale" will generate 'discussion' with me ... I think that should be 'sells'. I have voiced that before on this list, my view has not changed.


On 05/01/19 09:12, Allan Mustard wrote:

> Hmmm.  Having recently shepherded a proposal, and one which in the end was radically different from my original version due to valuable input from the OSM community, I say tell him to make a proposal and live with the results of voting or face wholesale reversion of his edits.
>
> My two manats’ worth.
>
> Cheers,
> Allan Mustard
> apm-wa
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jan 4, 2019, at 4:04 PM, Frederik Ramm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> the DWG has received a complaint about user ti-lo/Rtfm's introduction of
>> motorcycle tags.
>>
>> Until 03 April, the shop=motorcycle wiki page contained this:
>>
>>> The following is a proposal to put this service variety into tags:
>>>
>>>     sale=yes/brand/used/no/... - sells whole motorcycles
>>>     rental=yes/brand/no/... - motorcycle rental
>>>     repair=yes/brand/oldtimer/no/... - repairs / maintains motorcycles
>>>     safety_inspection=yes/no - inspection of safety/emission regulation conformance
>>>     parts=yes/brand/oldtimer/no/... - sells motorcycle parts
>>>     clothes=yes/brand/no/... - sells motorcycle clothes / equipment
>>>     scooters=yes/no/only - to distinguish scooter shops, very useful in Asia
>>>     services=... - other services this shop offers
>> Rtfm (which is ti-lo's account on the wiki) then removed any mention of
>> these tags and the word "proposal", instead added a table
>>
>>> Optional (compare with "Additional keys" in shop=bicycle)
>>> key    values    description    taginfo
>>> motorcycle:sales    yes/no/used    sells motorbikes / used=only second hand / yes;used=both new and used
>>> motorcycle:rental    yes/no/trailer    motorbike rental / motorbike trailer rental (Both: yes;trailer)
>>> motorcycle:repair    yes/no    motorbike repair
>>> motorcycle:parts    yes/no    sells parts
>>> motorcycle:tyres    yes/no    sells tyres (may also be used in combination with shop=tyres)
>>> motorcycle:clothes    yes/no    sells clothes
>>> motorcycle:type
>> Rtfm proceeded to execute an undiscussed mass edit on the OSM database
>> which was reverted here:
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/47664678
>>
>> However:
>>
>> * The wiki page has never been changed back
>> * Rtfm/ti-lo has continued to edit motorcycle shops around the world,
>> and whenever he touched one e.g. to change the spelling from "Harley
>> Davidson" to "Harley-Davidson", at the same time also replaced *all* the
>> old-style tags with his new-style tags again.
>> * ti-lo hismelf seems to be by far the most prolific user of these tags.
>>
>> What we have here is not really a classical mechanical edit, but a
>> one-man crusade to push through their tagging scheme.
>>
>> I'm not sure how to best deal with this. Normally we don't want to
>> over-emphasize the proposal and tag voting process and we often say "you
>> can just use a tag and it'll eventually be used by others too". But that
>> doesn't really apply to changing established tags. Even if it is for the
>> better - the complaint we have is really not so much about the new
>> tagging scheme but about the way in which it was established.
>>
>> Opinions?
>>
>> Should we revert the wiki page to the old version and revert all the
>> motorcycle:* tags that ti-lo changed from old-style to motorcycle:*?
>>
>> Or ask him to run a proper proposal process until $DEADLINE under threat
>> of doing the above?
>>
>> Or just shrug and let him have his way?
>>
>> Bye
>> Frederik
>>
>> --
>> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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Re: motorcycle tagging

Graeme Fitzpatrick
Yes, should definitely be a full proposal & discussion before a major change is pushed through by one user.

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: motorcycle tagging

Warin
On 05/01/19 12:57, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> Yes, should definitely be a full proposal & discussion before a major
> change is pushed through by one user.

Not mandatory in OSM ... "Any tags you like".


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Re: motorcycle tagging

Hufkratzer
Oh, this was new to me; I thought the rule "Any tags you like" only
applies to adding additional tags in the database and not to changing
old tags or to rewrite the documentation. I will keep that in mind.

On 5.1.2019 08:25, Warin wrote:

> On 05/01/19 12:57, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>> Yes, should definitely be a full proposal & discussion before a major
>> change is pushed through by one user.
>
> Not mandatory in OSM ... "Any tags you like".
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


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Re: motorcycle tagging

Paul Allen
On Sat, 5 Jan 2019 at 16:33, Hufkratzer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Oh, this was new to me; I thought the rule "Any tags you like" only
applies to adding additional tags in the database and not to changing
old tags or to rewrite the documentation. I will keep that in mind.

Yeah, I thought that too.  And it's not so much a guiding principal as an admission of laxity.
Nobody can stop you inventing and using any tag you want, but it is most certainly NOT
encouraged.  It is preferred that you discuss it here first, and go through a formal proposal, in
order to prevent multiple tags for the same objects and/or poorly-conceived tags.  We can't
stop you making tags up all by yourself, but we'd prefer it if you didn't.

As for inventing a new tag to replace existing tagging and then going around changing existing
tags without consultation, that is borderline vandalism (no matter how well conceived your new tag
is).  And then changing the wiki to match your new scheme that you discussed with nobody in
order to provide a veneer of retro-active justification, I do consider that to be vandalism.  OSM may
be a bit anarchical, but it cannot function unless it is a consensual anarchy.

I do not consider this particular advice from Warin to be helpful or to reflect the majority opinion.

--
Paul


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Re: motorcycle tagging

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Warin


sent from a phone

> On 5. Jan 2019, at 08:25, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Not mandatory in OSM ... "Any tags you like".


you can use any tags you like in your mapping, but that doesn’t imply “changing” tags. It is one thing adding motorcycle:* tags, and another removing “old style” tags.
Or changing the value of a “standard key” from something well known to something “new” (not established) (provided the well known value applies according to common understanding).

And it doesn’t imply changing the tagging recommendations in the wiki unilaterally. You can do this on your user page, but not in the common space.

I agree with Allan’s proposition and ask him to set up a proposal.

Cheers, Martin
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Re: motorcycle tagging

Warin
In reply to this post by Paul Allen
On 06/01/19 04:07, Paul Allen wrote:
On Sat, 5 Jan 2019 at 16:33, Hufkratzer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Oh, this was new to me; I thought the rule "Any tags you like" only
applies to adding additional tags in the database and not to changing
old tags or to rewrite the documentation. I will keep that in mind.

Yeah, I thought that too.  And it's not so much a guiding principal as an admission of laxity.
Nobody can stop you inventing and using any tag you want, but it is most certainly NOT
encouraged.  It is preferred that you discuss it here first, and go through a formal proposal, in
order to prevent multiple tags for the same objects and/or poorly-conceived tags.  We can't
stop you making tags up all by yourself, but we'd prefer it if you didn't.

There is no requirement not to use any new tag that you like. Nor is there a requirement to document it.

What 'we' would like is another matter.
As for 'encouragement' the proposal process and then the voting reality is far from any from or 'encouragement' .. more like a torture path,
look at the rejected proposals and the way that votes were cast by people who took no part in the discussions.

What I would like is some discussion here first. I would highly encourage that and have done so in the past.
Then the person can make a decision - used it and document it or make a formal proposal.
I no longer encourage people to the tagging list, and certainly not to the proposal process. 


As for inventing a new tag to replace existing tagging and then going around changing existing
tags without consultation, that is borderline vandalism (no matter how well conceived your new tag
is).  And then changing the wiki to match your new scheme that you discussed with nobody in
order to provide a veneer of retro-active justification, I do consider that to be vandalism.  OSM may
be a bit anarchical, but it cannot function unless it is a consensual anarchy.

That was not my intent! I quote
-------------------------

On 5.1.2019 08:25, Warin wrote:
On 05/01/19 12:57, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
Yes, should definitely be a full proposal & discussion before a major change is pushed through by one user.

Not mandatory in OSM ... "Any tags you like".

------------------------------
By that I mean "Not mandatory to make a full proposal & discuss before introducing new tags. "
I do condone the use of new tags on new entries.



I do not consider this particular advice from Warin to be helpful or to reflect the majority opinion.

I do not condone the replacement of tags by new tags that have not been discussed and resolved into one being a suitable replacement for the other.
Such discussion should take place on this tagging list  (not elsewhere!).



I hope that is clear?


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Re: motorcycle tagging

Warin
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On 06/01/19 06:51, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 5. Jan 2019, at 08:25, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Not mandatory in OSM ... "Any tags you like".
>
> you can use any tags you like in your mapping, but that doesn’t imply “changing” tags. It is one thing adding motorcycle:* tags, and another removing “old style” tags.
> Or changing the value of a “standard key” from something well known to something “new” (not established) (provided the well known value applies according to common understanding).

Thanks for reading the words and not adding to there meaning :)

I too do not encourage changing current tags to some other tag. Only with depreciated tags would I encourage there replacement with more current tag use.

>
> And it doesn’t imply changing the tagging recommendations in the wiki unilaterally. You can do this on your user page, but not in the common space.
>
> I agree with Allan’s proposition and ask him to set up a proposal.

Rather than 'set up a proposal' I would ask the contributor (and that is not Allen) to discuss the matter here.

Possible problems are that the contributor does not have good English skills and maybe reactant to enter into that problem area combined with the problem of tagging.


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Re: motorcycle tagging

AlaskaDave
I have been contacted at least twice by user:ti-lo about changing the tagging of several motorcycle shops I've added over the years. He is a bit of an evangelist for the new scheme yet has always been polite while asking to change my tags. Recently, I checked to see if the tags were documented in the Wiki and learned that the "new tagging" scheme aligned with his recommendations. I like the scheme and have always said, sure, go ahead never thinking that the Wiki had been modified by him (as user:Rtfm) to push the scheme he favors.

I don't think it's good policy to discourage mappers from coming up with a new tagging scheme. However, such wholesale changes should be discussed fully here and perhaps elsewhere but, as someone else pointed out, trying to get anything approved by the tagging list is a long struggle that often ends in stalemate. I have often been frustrated by the endless deliberations that occur on this list when even a relatively small change in tagging has been suggested.

Consequently, my opinion about what to do is mixed. Certainly, a full discussion is warranted before going ahead.

Best,
Dave

On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 5:48 AM Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 06/01/19 06:51, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 5. Jan 2019, at 08:25, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Not mandatory in OSM ... "Any tags you like".
>
> you can use any tags you like in your mapping, but that doesn’t imply “changing” tags. It is one thing adding motorcycle:* tags, and another removing “old style” tags.
> Or changing the value of a “standard key” from something well known to something “new” (not established) (provided the well known value applies according to common understanding).

Thanks for reading the words and not adding to there meaning :)

I too do not encourage changing current tags to some other tag. Only with depreciated tags would I encourage there replacement with more current tag use.

>
> And it doesn’t imply changing the tagging recommendations in the wiki unilaterally. You can do this on your user page, but not in the common space.
>
> I agree with Allan’s proposition and ask him to set up a proposal.

Rather than 'set up a proposal' I would ask the contributor (and that is not Allen) to discuss the matter here.

Possible problems are that the contributor does not have good English skills and maybe reactant to enter into that problem area combined with the problem of tagging.


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Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com

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Re: motorcycle tagging

Allan Mustard
To be clear, it is not my proposal and I cannot even ride a motorcycle.  

The mapper making the wholesale changes, ti-lo/Rtfm,  should submit a proposal, period, since it appears the issue involves wholesale change of existing tags, not introduction of new tags.

It may not be a "requirement" but it is the polite or communally proper thing to do.  If I did it, he can do it.

cheers,
apm



On Sat, Jan 5, 2019 at 8:01 PM Dave Swarthout <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have been contacted at least twice by user:ti-lo about changing the tagging of several motorcycle shops I've added over the years. He is a bit of an evangelist for the new scheme yet has always been polite while asking to change my tags. Recently, I checked to see if the tags were documented in the Wiki and learned that the "new tagging" scheme aligned with his recommendations. I like the scheme and have always said, sure, go ahead never thinking that the Wiki had been modified by him (as user:Rtfm) to push the scheme he favors.

I don't think it's good policy to discourage mappers from coming up with a new tagging scheme. However, such wholesale changes should be discussed fully here and perhaps elsewhere but, as someone else pointed out, trying to get anything approved by the tagging list is a long struggle that often ends in stalemate. I have often been frustrated by the endless deliberations that occur on this list when even a relatively small change in tagging has been suggested.

Consequently, my opinion about what to do is mixed. Certainly, a full discussion is warranted before going ahead.

Best,
Dave

On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 5:48 AM Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 06/01/19 06:51, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 5. Jan 2019, at 08:25, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Not mandatory in OSM ... "Any tags you like".
>
> you can use any tags you like in your mapping, but that doesn’t imply “changing” tags. It is one thing adding motorcycle:* tags, and another removing “old style” tags.
> Or changing the value of a “standard key” from something well known to something “new” (not established) (provided the well known value applies according to common understanding).

Thanks for reading the words and not adding to there meaning :)

I too do not encourage changing current tags to some other tag. Only with depreciated tags would I encourage there replacement with more current tag use.

>
> And it doesn’t imply changing the tagging recommendations in the wiki unilaterally. You can do this on your user page, but not in the common space.
>
> I agree with Allan’s proposition and ask him to set up a proposal.

Rather than 'set up a proposal' I would ask the contributor (and that is not Allen) to discuss the matter here.

Possible problems are that the contributor does not have good English skills and maybe reactant to enter into that problem area combined with the problem of tagging.


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Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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