name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom

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name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom

Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
The place=country nodes (see attached OSM file) are quite
inconsistently tagged when it comes to their name field, which is what
mapnik and osmarender use on lowzoom.

* Most have the common English name in the name= field, e.g. Germany and Andorra
* Some have their full English name, e.g. Russian Federation
* Some have their common native name, e.g. Österreich
* ‎Some have their native name and a transliteration of it, e.g.
al-Sūdān السودان
* Japan has its native name and the common English name in
parentheses: "日本 (Japan)"

I think it would be nice to have consistency on the main map view in
this regard. What I'd like to see rendered is the common English name
for each country. Whether that's achieved by standardizing that as the
proper value for the name tag, maintaining int_name or something else
is a matter for discussion. But regardless of what we do it would be
nice to have consistency for globally visible nodes like these.
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Re: name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom

Sascha Silbe-15
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 08:14:21PM +0000, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:

> * Most have the common English name in the name= field, e.g. Germany
> and Andorra
At least for Germany, this has already been fixed on 2008-12-04.
name=* (without a language code) should be the name in the local
language.

 From the wiki page defining the meaning of name [1]:
> name=Irgendwas        (the default name, used locally)
> name:en=Something     (the name in English)


[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name

CU Sascha

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Re: name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom

Vikas Yadav-2
where is a local language being set for a country or a region?

2009/1/15 Sascha Silbe <[hidden email]>
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 08:14:21PM +0000, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:

* Most have the common English name in the name= field, e.g. Germany and Andorra
At least for Germany, this has already been fixed on 2008-12-04.
name=* (without a language code) should be the name in the local language.

From the wiki page defining the meaning of name [1]:
name=Irgendwas        (the default name, used locally)
name:en=Something     (the name in English)


[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name

CU Sascha

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Re: name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom

D Tucny
In reply to this post by Sascha Silbe-15
2009/1/15 Sascha Silbe <[hidden email]>
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 08:14:21PM +0000, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:

* Most have the common English name in the name= field, e.g. Germany and Andorra
At least for Germany, this has already been fixed on 2008-12-04.
name=* (without a language code) should be the name in the local language.

From the wiki page defining the meaning of name [1]:
name=Irgendwas        (the default name, used locally)
name:en=Something     (the name in English)


[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name


+1

As I see it, the default render shouldn't be English, it should be using the local name of each location/object...

If/when we get caption layers for different languages, then, the English caption layer would contain the English names of countries, and this would be OK as the user could choose to view data in English, equally, someone could choose a Chinese layer to view the Chinese names of countries or a Japanese layer to view the Japanese names of countries...

Also, if someone so desired, they could make a caption layer that incorporated the local name with English or a combination of languages in smaller text below the local name, or the local name followed by the English name in parentheses...

I feel that the approach of putting multiple languages into the name tag when there are not multiple local languages is at least not good as I see it as being tagging for the renderer(s) in their current state, rather than providing all the information in such a way as the renderer can use it as they see fit...

The one exception I see, which I'm not sure on how best to handle, is countries that have multiple official languages and as such, multiple official names... I believe this to be the case at least with Belgium and Switzerland for example where there are multiple valid local names depending on the language used in a certain part of the country (plus latin for Switzerland)...

d

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Re: name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom

Elena ``of Valhalla''
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 5:53 AM, D Tucny <[hidden email]> wrote:
> As I see it, the default render shouldn't be English, it should be using the
> local name of each location/object...

I would consider an exception for state names and possibly very big
cities, if mapnik could be able to build the label from different
tags, it would be nice to have "name (name:en)" on those.

The data should remain separated in the two tags, however, using name
= "Local Name (English Name)" sounds like tagging for the renders

> The one exception I see, which I'm not sure on how best to handle, is
> countries that have multiple official languages and as such, multiple
> official names... I believe this to be the case at least with Belgium and
> Switzerland for example where there are multiple valid local names depending
> on the language used in a certain part of the country (plus latin for
> Switzerland)...

I believe that the official Swiss name is the latin one, exactly to
solve this issue, but I'm not sure that all of the countries with more
than one official language have a standard official name like them.



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homepage: http://www.trueelena.org
email: [hidden email]

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Re: name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom

Sascha Silbe-15
In reply to this post by Vikas Yadav-2
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 10:17:46AM +0530, ??? ??? (vikas yadav) wrote:

> where is a local language being set for a country or a region?
It isn't at all. The software doesn't know which language "name" is in,
only the mapper does.

CU Sascha

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Re: name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom

Stefan Baebler
>> where is a local language being set for a country or a region?
> It isn't at all. The software doesn't know which language "name" is in, only
> the mapper does.
Software can only gues the language of the default name from an
identical name value with a specified language.

eg:
name=Venezia
name:en=Venice
name:sl=Benetke
name:de=Venedig
...
can additonally be tagged with
name:it=Venezia

This could be used to make nice maps of default languages, if only it
was used more than just on major cities (smaller places rarely have
foreign names)

With just one tag precisely describing the name (with language) all
other translations could be pulled from wikipedia (enriching maps with
additional languages) when needed
eg such precise tag could be
wikipedia:en=Venice

Stefan

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Re: name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom

Donald Allwright
>Software can only gues the language of the default name from an
>identical name value with a specified language.

>eg:
>name=Venezia
>name:en=Venice
>name:sl=Benetke
>name:de=Venedig
>...
>can additonally be tagged with
>name:it=Venezia
>
>This could be used to make nice maps of default languages, if only it
>was used more than just on major cities (smaller places rarely have
>foreign names)

How would you deal with something like:
name=Paris
name:fr=Paris
name:es=Paris
name:en=Paris
?
You can't really tell the default language from this. It would only work if we can guarantee that only where the name is different in a specific language is it tagged - I've not checked but I'd guess there are lots of examples of (strictly speaking superfluous) tags like this. There will also be cases where the only difference is an accent on a letter - this will work if correctly tagged, but there will probably be a lot of errors in the tagging where an accent missed off in the native language. (e.g. Peru vs Perú).

Cheers,
Donald


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Re: name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom

Stefan Baebler


On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Donald Allwright <[hidden email]> wrote:
>Software can only gues the language of the default name from an
>identical name value with a specified language.

>eg:
>name=Venezia
>name:en=Venice
>name:sl=Benetke
>name:de=Venedig
>...
>can additonally be tagged with
>name:it=Venezia
>
>This could be used to make nice maps of default languages, if only it
>was used more than just on major cities (smaller places rarely have
>foreign names)

How would you deal with something like:
name=Paris
name:fr=Paris
name:es=Paris
name:en=Paris
name:sl=Pariz
so we can scratch at least that one out from the list of all possible local languages to give that Paris pixel a bit more yellowish tone ;)
I did say such language maps could be nice, not necessarily exact.

Stefan
 

?
You can't really tell the default language from this. It would only work if we can guarantee that only where the name is different in a specific language is it tagged - I've not checked but I'd guess there are lots of examples of (strictly speaking superfluous) tags like this. There will also be cases where the only difference is an accent on a letter - this will work if correctly tagged, but there will probably be a lot of errors in the tagging where an accent missed off in the native language. (e.g. Peru vs Perú).

Cheers,
Donald



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Re: name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom

Robert (Jamie) Munro
In reply to this post by Vikas Yadav-2
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ビカス ヤダワ (vikas yadav) wrote:
> where is a local language being set for a country or a region?

By the country or regions government, usually.

I think there is a misunderstanding going on here. If I speak English, I
want and English map of the world. If I speak French, I want a French
map of the world. In neither case do I want a map that has England in
English and France in French. IMHO, the correct procedure for drawing a
map is to:

1. Decide what language your map is in.
2. Look for name:[language]= tags and draw them
3. Look for name= tags where the one for your language doesn't exist.

The problem is that the default maps generated by the project (mapnik
and osmarender) both get this wrong. They omit step one, and try to
pretend that the map can be not in any particular language.

AFAIK, there is no English language rendering of OSM. There is a Welsh
one, for example here:
http://sucs.org/~rollercow/cyosm/
and probably other languages around the place.

Robert (Jamie) Munro
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Re: name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom

Hakan Tandogan
In reply to this post by Stefan Baebler

On Thu, January 15, 2009 14:31, Stefan Baebler wrote:

>>> where is a local language being set for a country or a region?
>> It isn't at all. The software doesn't know which language "name" is in,
>> only the mapper does.
> Software can only gues the language of the default name from an
> identical name value with a specified language.
>
> eg:
> name=Venezia name:en=Venice
> name:sl=Benetke
> name:de=Venedig
> ...
> can additonally be tagged with name:it=Venezia
>
>
> This could be used to make nice maps of default languages, if only it
> was used more than just on major cities (smaller places rarely have foreign
> names)
>
> With just one tag precisely describing the name (with language) all
> other translations could be pulled from wikipedia (enriching maps with
> additional languages) when needed eg such precise tag could be
> wikipedia:en=Venice

This is one reason why I add the geonames ID of country objects to the
node. If necessary, a renderer could pull additional names from geonames,
if / when they become available, without having to go to Wikipedia and
parse the information found there.

Mind you, I'm adding just the geonames ID, not the data found there ;-)


Regards,
Hakan


--
The key to immortality is first living a life worth remembering...



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Re: name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom

andrzej zaborowski
2009/1/19 Hakan Tandogan <[hidden email]>:

>
> On Thu, January 15, 2009 14:31, Stefan Baebler wrote:
>>>> where is a local language being set for a country or a region?
>>> It isn't at all. The software doesn't know which language "name" is in,
>>> only the mapper does.
>> Software can only gues the language of the default name from an
>> identical name value with a specified language.
>>
>> eg:
>> name=Venezia name:en=Venice
>> name:sl=Benetke
>> name:de=Venedig
>> ...
>> can additonally be tagged with name:it=Venezia
>>
>>
>> This could be used to make nice maps of default languages, if only it
>> was used more than just on major cities (smaller places rarely have foreign
>> names)
>>
>> With just one tag precisely describing the name (with language) all
>> other translations could be pulled from wikipedia (enriching maps with
>> additional languages) when needed eg such precise tag could be
>> wikipedia:en=Venice

I was wondering about links to wikipedia in national languages and
asked about it on IRC recently and settled on tagging with
wikipedia=en:Venice rather than wikipedia:en=Venice (actually I use
the form wikipedia=<language>:Page_Title only for non-english articles
and wikipedia=Page_Title if English is available).  I try to tag not
only major place names but also anything else that has a page.

Using "wikipedia=" instead of "wikipedia:<language>=" is good because
it strongly suggests that there is only one such tag per object
instead of many and avoids having conflicting translations with those
in wikipedia.

>
> This is one reason why I add the geonames ID of country objects to the
> node. If necessary, a renderer could pull additional names from geonames,
> if / when they become available, without having to go to Wikipedia and
> parse the information found there.

Slightly off-topic, the recently added low-zoom country map display
(mapnik) apparently pulls data from outside OSM database.  I spotted a
typo (or what I think is a typo) and wanted to correct it and found
that the name with a typo was nowhere in the database.  I think the
renderer should only pull data from sources that we can fix.  Where
does the data come from?

Cheers

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Re: name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom

vegard-3
On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 05:01:17PM +0100, andrzej zaborowski wrote:

>
> I was wondering about links to wikipedia in national languages and
> asked about it on IRC recently and settled on tagging with
> wikipedia=en:Venice rather than wikipedia:en=Venice (actually I use
> the form wikipedia=<language>:Page_Title only for non-english articles
> and wikipedia=Page_Title if English is available).  I try to tag not
> only major place names but also anything else that has a page.
>
> Using "wikipedia=" instead of "wikipedia:<language>=" is good because
> it strongly suggests that there is only one such tag per object
> instead of many and avoids having conflicting translations with those
> in wikipedia.
>

This, I do not agree with at all. And your example is very good to
demonstrate :)

Why shouldn't the italian version of the page,
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezia, be the authorative page, It looks
a little bit larger and more extensive. I think that just as we need a
namespace for local translations of names, we'll even more need to be
able to provide links to national forms of wikipedia-articles. Assuming
they belong in the DB at all, a question I haven't thought all that much
about :)

--
- Vegard Engen, member of the first RFC1149 implementation team.

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Re: outside data sources? (was: "name tags on place=country ...")

Claudius Henrichs
In reply to this post by andrzej zaborowski
Am 19.01.2009 17:01, andrzej zaborowski:
> Slightly off-topic, the recently added low-zoom country map display
> (mapnik) apparently pulls data from outside OSM database.  I spotted a
> typo (or what I think is a typo) and wanted to correct it and found
> that the name with a typo was nowhere in the database.  I think the
> renderer should only pull data from sources that we can fix.  Where
> does the data come from?

That's not the case. I'd be rather that someone spotted and fixed the
typo reight before you.

Regards,
Claudius


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Re: name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom

Steve Chilton-2
In reply to this post by andrzej zaborowski
Can you give an example please?
The change I instigated in mapnik was to pick up the place=country tag combination from the database and map that.
 
Cheers
STEVE
 

        -----Original Message-----
        From: [hidden email] on behalf of andrzej zaborowski
        Sent: Mon 1/19/2009 4:01 PM
        To: Hakan Tandogan
        Cc: [hidden email]; osm-talk; Sascha Silbe
        Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom
       
        Slightly off-topic, the recently added low-zoom country map display
        (mapnik) apparently pulls data from outside OSM database.  I spotted a
        typo (or what I think is a typo) and wanted to correct it and found
        that the name with a typo was nowhere in the database.  I think the
        renderer should only pull data from sources that we can fix.  Where
        does the data come from?
       
        Cheers
       
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Re: name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom

andrzej zaborowski
In reply to this post by vegard-3
2009/1/19 vegard <[hidden email]>:

> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 05:01:17PM +0100, andrzej zaborowski wrote:
>>
>> I was wondering about links to wikipedia in national languages and
>> asked about it on IRC recently and settled on tagging with
>> wikipedia=en:Venice rather than wikipedia:en=Venice (actually I use
>> the form wikipedia=<language>:Page_Title only for non-english articles
>> and wikipedia=Page_Title if English is available).  I try to tag not
>> only major place names but also anything else that has a page.
>>
>> Using "wikipedia=" instead of "wikipedia:<language>=" is good because
>> it strongly suggests that there is only one such tag per object
>> instead of many and avoids having conflicting translations with those
>> in wikipedia.
>>
>
> This, I do not agree with at all. And your example is very good to
> demonstrate :)
>
> Why shouldn't the italian version of the page,
> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezia, be the authorative page, It looks
> a little bit larger and more extensive.

Sure, I'm not saying English is preferred or authoritative.. just how
to tag it.  In case of an italian city node, you may want to use
wikipedia=it:Venezia, but it doesn't really make any difference
because pages on the different wikipedias are all interlinked.

Since the wikipedia= tag is already documented on the wiki and was
used for linking to english articles on WP, for "compatibility" with
what's already there I leave out the "en:" part if it's in english
(not otherwise).

Cheers

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Re: name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom

andrzej zaborowski
In reply to this post by Steve Chilton-2
2009/1/19 Steve Chilton <[hidden email]>:
> Can you give an example please?
> The change I instigated in mapnik was to pick up the place=country tag combination from the database and map that.

Oh this isn't a place=country, it's particularly the "Lake Onegh"
halfway between the labels "Finland" and "Russian Federation"
(http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=61.7&mlon=36.7&zoom=5&layers=B000FTF).
 (note that the lake as a patch of water also doesn't appear at this
zoom level)

Not meaning to say that it shouldn't be rendered... just wondering
where the names are pulled from.  If you look at Moscow, it renders as
Moskva (which *is* in the database -- but only as "name:no")

Cheers

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Re: name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom

Stephen Gower-2
In reply to this post by Robert (Jamie) Munro
On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 02:13:25PM +0000, Robert (Jamie) Munro wrote:
>
> I think there is a misunderstanding going on here. If I speak English, I
> want and English map of the world. If I speak French, I want a French
> map of the world. In neither case do I want a map that has England in
> English and France in French.

Actually, as an English speaker, I want a bi-lingual map when abroad - I'm
going to be thinking of my destination as Munich (for example) but want the
reassurance of knowing the signposts to München are pointing the direction
I'm going.

s

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Re: name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom

D Tucny
In reply to this post by Robert (Jamie) Munro
2009/1/19 Robert (Jamie) Munro <[hidden email]>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

ビカス ヤダワ (vikas yadav) wrote:
> where is a local language being set for a country or a region?

By the country or regions government, usually.

I think there is a misunderstanding going on here. If I speak English, I
want and English map of the world. If I speak French, I want a French
map of the world. In neither case do I want a map that has England in
English and France in French. IMHO, the correct procedure for drawing a
map is to:

1. Decide what language your map is in.
2. Look for name:[language]= tags and draw them
3. Look for name= tags where the one for your language doesn't exist.

The problem is that the default maps generated by the project (mapnik
and osmarender) both get this wrong. They omit step one, and try to
pretend that the map can be not in any particular language.

It's obviously a preference thing then...  I'd prefer a map that had the real names of features rather than whatever, potentially dodgy, translation any other language had... I admit that it might be useful, especially with non-latin character based languages to view alternative, potentially latin variant names as an option, but, that shouldn't, I believe, be the default...

Yes, making the maps available in different languages would be good, and the idea of separating captions out into their own layers might be the best approach to that, but, if we have any sort of default I believe it should reflect the real feature names in their native language... This is what I would expect...

I think your correct procedure for drawing a map could only be applicable if you had a limited audience... OSM has an unlimited audience... The default view of the map can't/shouldn't be targetted at a specific language in my opinion...

d

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Re: outside data sources? (was: "name tags on place=country ...")

andrzej zaborowski
In reply to this post by Claudius Henrichs
2009/1/19 Claudius Henrichs <[hidden email]>:

> Am 19.01.2009 17:01, andrzej zaborowski:
>> Slightly off-topic, the recently added low-zoom country map display
>> (mapnik) apparently pulls data from outside OSM database.  I spotted a
>> typo (or what I think is a typo) and wanted to correct it and found
>> that the name with a typo was nowhere in the database.  I think the
>> renderer should only pull data from sources that we can fix.  Where
>> does the data come from?
>
> That's not the case. I'd be rather that someone spotted and fixed the
> typo reight before you.

It would have rerendered the names about three times by now.  Also,
what will explain that the names are correct with zoom levels 6 and
up, while 1-5 display the non-existent names?  Where does the data
come from?

Cheers

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