new branch NOD127

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new branch NOD127

Gerd Petermann
Hi all,

I've created a new branch NOD127 :
http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/download/mkgmap-NOD127-r3086.zip

This is used to test the latest findings regarding the NOD file format.
Most of it is understood now, thanks to Steve and his display tool :-)

Changes in r3086 compared to trunk r3081:
- nodes are grouped by classes and additional arcs are written to connect
nodes. This seems to improve routing, at least it is much closer to what
real maps contain.
- avoid roundabouts works in Basecamp (only with "shorter distance")
- avoid toll roads works as expected, is trunk it has to be switched on
to allow routing on major roads

A few open questions remain at this point:
- the carpool bit seems to have no effect, it is likely that there is a bit
in the NOD header that has to be switched on or off to change that,
but we don't know where.
- some original maps contain extra info for route restrctions, we don't know
yet what they mean.

Gerd

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Re: new branch NOD127

ligfietser
Hi Gerd,

This looks like a major improvement in routing, well done guys!

I've done a few small tests in Basecamp with the default style:
-Cars are not routed on bike paths anymore (and I dont have to set carpool avoidance on)
-Bikes are not sent on footways (bicycle=no seems respected?)
-Cycling profile, car profile and pedestrian now finally behave as expected

So it seems the issues with the carpool bit are solved too.

Havent tested it yet on my devices but this branch looks very promising!
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Re: new branch NOD127

Gerd Petermann
Hi Minko,

great!
I only looked at the car routing so far.

Gerd

> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 14:26:06 +0100

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [mkgmap-dev] new branch NOD127
>
> Hi Gerd,
>
> This looks like a major improvement in routing, well done guys!
>
> I've done a few small tests in Basecamp with the default style:
> -Cars are not routed on bike paths anymore (and I dont have to set carpool avoidance on)
> -Bikes are not sent on footways (bicycle=no seems respected?)
> -Cycling profile, car profile and pedestrian now finally behave as expected
>
> So it seems the issues with the carpool bit are solved too.
>
> Havent tested it yet on my devices but this branch looks very promising!
> _______________________________________________
> mkgmap-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev

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Re: new branch NOD127

popej
In reply to this post by Gerd Petermann
Hi Gerd,

I have tested your branch a bit. I have noticed some weird routing, see
pictures at:
http://files.mkgmap.org.uk/download/183/nod-routingi.7z

There is unexpected detour for longer route, you can see it on
nod-long.png. On trunk r3087 the some route is correct.

I have replaced roundabouts with object 0x0B but routing remained the
same, so probably it is not due bits connected with roundabouts.

Other note: could you add a message with version at the start of mkgmap?
I already have so many version that I'm not always sure which one is
running.

--
Best regards,
Andrzej
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Re: new branch NOD127

Gerd Petermann
Hi Andrzej,

yes, that looks wrong.
Please report also the settings and version of the Garmin program you are using.

Gerd

popej wrote
Hi Gerd,

I have tested your branch a bit. I have noticed some weird routing, see
pictures at:
http://files.mkgmap.org.uk/download/183/nod-routingi.7z

There is unexpected detour for longer route, you can see it on
nod-long.png. On trunk r3087 the some route is correct.

I have replaced roundabouts with object 0x0B but routing remained the
same, so probably it is not due bits connected with roundabouts.

Other note: could you add a message with version at the start of mkgmap?
I already have so many version that I'm not always sure which one is
running.

--
Best regards,
Andrzej
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Re: new branch NOD127

Gerd Petermann
In reply to this post by popej
Hi Andrzej,

regarding version:
you can use option --version, but mkgmap will then only print the version.
If you have an img file you can use grep or findstr and search for the string mkgmap.

Gerd

popej wrote
Other note: could you add a message with version at the start of mkgmap?
I already have so many version that I'm not always sure which one is
running.
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Re: new branch NOD127

popej
In reply to this post by Gerd Petermann
Hi Gerd,

 > Please report also the settings and version of the Garmin program you
 > are using.

Sorry, not a good testing. Screen shots are form Mapsource with
settings: car/motorcycle, shorter distance, avoid unpaved roads and
ferries. I thought it was faster time.

 > you can use option --version, but mkgmap will then only print the
 > version.
 > If you have an img file you can use grep or findstr and search for
 > the string mkgmap.

I often use own license text and then there is no mkgmap version in img.
Which leads to another suggestion: map license probably should be
written inside LBL subfile, leaving TRE subfile for compiler message.

--
Best regards,
Andrzej
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Re: new branch NOD127

Gerd Petermann
Hi Andrzej,

if I got that right you use your own style. Can you
reproduce the results with the default style?
If yes, what options do you use?

Gerd

> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 20:41:05 +0100

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [mkgmap-dev] new branch NOD127
>
> Hi Gerd,
>
> > Please report also the settings and version of the Garmin program you
> > are using.
>
> Sorry, not a good testing. Screen shots are form Mapsource with
> settings: car/motorcycle, shorter distance, avoid unpaved roads and
> ferries. I thought it was faster time.
>
> > you can use option --version, but mkgmap will then only print the
> > version.
> > If you have an img file you can use grep or findstr and search for
> > the string mkgmap.
>
> I often use own license text and then there is no mkgmap version in img.
> Which leads to another suggestion: map license probably should be
> written inside LBL subfile, leaving TRE subfile for compiler message.
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Andrzej
> _______________________________________________
> mkgmap-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev

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Re: new branch NOD127

Gerd Petermann
Hi Andrzej,

forget it. Just found a similar case by inverting a good route,
the inverted tour leaves a major road and is 4km longer.
I'll try to find out what goes wrong.

Gerd


From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 08:42:53 +0100
Subject: Re: [mkgmap-dev] new branch NOD127

Hi Andrzej,

if I got that right you use your own style. Can you
reproduce the results with the default style?
If yes, what options do you use?

Gerd

> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 20:41:05 +0100

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [mkgmap-dev] new branch NOD127
>
> Hi Gerd,
>
> > Please report also the settings and version of the Garmin program you
> > are using.
>
> Sorry, not a good testing. Screen shots are form Mapsource with
> settings: car/motorcycle, shorter distance, avoid unpaved roads and
> ferries. I thought it was faster time.
>
> > you can use option --version, but mkgmap will then only print the
> > version.
> > If you have an img file you can use grep or findstr and search for
> > the string mkgmap.
>
> I often use own license text and then there is no mkgmap version in img.
> Which leads to another suggestion: map license probably should be
> written inside LBL subfile, leaving TRE subfile for compiler message.
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Andrzej
> _______________________________________________
> mkgmap-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev

_______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list [hidden email] http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev

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Re: new branch NOD127

Felix Hartmann-2
In reply to this post by Gerd Petermann
I have generated a map using NOD127 branch - for me the routing results
are about the same, if not slightly worse.
Using shorter distance option, there seems to be a bit higher focus on
using fast roads. Also there are more turns than on trunk in the routes
- and more often little detours to get on a "better" road.

But well, my styles are anything but standard.

Else I couldn't notice anything. Just like using trunk - Mapsource
produced some crashes - this didn't hapen for me using mkgmap as of mid
December (didn't update since then till now). It's not crashing
Mapsource fully, but Error Code 3 and go again... I cannot find out any
reason for it however (happens about 1 in 10 long distance routes. If I
change the split or something in the style, then it will happen
somewhere else).
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Re: new branch NOD127

Gerd Petermann
Hi Felix,

it seems that we write invalid or wrong turn restriction in the branch.
I can't say much more until now, but maybe a restriction is simply used
at the wrong crossing. This can cause all kinds weird results.
I am also not sure if this branch works as well with styles like yours
which creates multiple routable ways for one street, as this is not
used in the Garmin maps that I know.
 
Gerd

Felix Hartmann-2 wrote
I have generated a map using NOD127 branch - for me the routing results
are about the same, if not slightly worse.
Using shorter distance option, there seems to be a bit higher focus on
using fast roads. Also there are more turns than on trunk in the routes
- and more often little detours to get on a "better" road.

But well, my styles are anything but standard.

Else I couldn't notice anything. Just like using trunk - Mapsource
produced some crashes - this didn't hapen for me using mkgmap as of mid
December (didn't update since then till now). It's not crashing
Mapsource fully, but Error Code 3 and go again... I cannot find out any
reason for it however (happens about 1 in 10 long distance routes. If I
change the split or something in the style, then it will happen
somewhere else).
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Re: new branch NOD127

Gerd Petermann
In reply to this post by popej
Hi Andrzej,

I am quite clueless.
I can reproduce your results with a map for Poland.
In BaseCamp results are even more strange.
For both trunk and branch, I see a big detour depending on
the start point, so something is weird with road 6.

I've disabled writing of restrictions : same result.
with or without --adjust-turn-headings: same result

I am running out of ideas ...

Gerd

> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 20:41:05 +0100

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [mkgmap-dev] new branch NOD127
>
> Hi Gerd,
>
> > Please report also the settings and version of the Garmin program you
> > are using.
>
> Sorry, not a good testing. Screen shots are form Mapsource with
> settings: car/motorcycle, shorter distance, avoid unpaved roads and
> ferries. I thought it was faster time.
>
> > you can use option --version, but mkgmap will then only print the
> > version.
> > If you have an img file you can use grep or findstr and search for
> > the string mkgmap.
>
> I often use own license text and then there is no mkgmap version in img.
> Which leads to another suggestion: map license probably should be
> written inside LBL subfile, leaving TRE subfile for compiler message.
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Andrzej
> _______________________________________________
> mkgmap-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev

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Re: new branch NOD127

popej
Hi Gerd,

 > For both trunk and branch, I see a big detour depending on
 > the start point, so something is weird with road 6.

I'm afraid it could be quite difficult to get good routing in Poland
with default style. especially in BaseCamp. That's because our road
network miss highways and Garmin programs need class 4 roads, when
calculating long route.

I have tested my maps, which I know best, but maybe you could find
similar behavior in other area? If not, I can send you my style for road
map. I will try investigate a bit, maybe I will be able to isolate this
problem.

--
Best regards,
Andrzej
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Re: new branch NOD127

popej
In reply to this post by Gerd Petermann
Hi Gerd,

I have tested routing with trunk r3093 and nod127 r3095. I have used
default style, car/motorcycle routing, fastest route. I can confirm,
that both version show a detour on Polish road 6. It seems to depend on
many factor so it is difficult to isolate a meaningful example.

Some notices:

In Mapsource route depends on "Road selection" option in route
preferences. I usually set it in the middle but when set to 75% of
"Prefer Highways", routing becomes better.

For nod127 branch there is difference in routing, when I set avoidances
to unpaved road. It doesn't clear the problem, only detour is different.

In BaseCamp I got the same detour in both version of mkgmap. For nod127
detour changes, when I set avoidance to unpaved road, no change in
trunk. In both version detour changes the same way if I set avoidances
to residential streets. Any of highway avoidances changes detour and
when I use avoid State Highways, route is correct. I'm not sure what is
"State Highway" for BaseCamp, it could be primary road, which actually
is used for route.

BaseCamp is not able to calculate longer route with trunk, the same
route is calculated with nod127 (including detour).

Please write if you have any suggestion what could I test or what data
could be useful for you.

--
Best regards,
Andrzej
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Re: new branch NOD127

Thorsten Kukuk
In reply to this post by Gerd Petermann

Hi,

On Thu, Mar 06, Gerd Petermann wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I've created a new branch NOD127 :
> http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/download/mkgmap-NOD127-r3086.zip
>
> This is used to test the latest findings regarding the NOD file format.
> Most of it is understood now, thanks to Steve and his display tool :-)

I made quite some tests the last two days with it.

In principle the result is much better then with trunk, but
sometimes I see really bad choices, like leaving a highway
and using a primary/secondary street only to go back to the
highway a little bit later. Or using highways which are much
longer then the direct highway.
What I found out: this happens always if the direct route
would cross a tile border.
And I'm not sure if this is really only a problem of the branch,
because I can now see similar problems on trunk, too :(

I have two styles: "streets", which contains only bigger routes
and very few POIs, thus has really big tiles. Here the routing
is very good.
The second style, "basemap", contains all streets and a huge amount
of POIs, thus small tiles. Here I suddenly see similar problems.
So looks like at some point we introduced a problem with routing
via tile borders, at least with MapSource.
I'm currently trying to find out when this got worse.

Thorsten

--
Thorsten Kukuk, Senior Architect SLES & Common Code Base
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg
GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
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Re: new branch NOD127

Gerd Petermann
In reply to this post by popej
Hi Andrzej,

The part of road 6 that is avoided has many roundabouts.
Maybe the Garmin algo doesn't like them?
I'll try to find out if we can use the new knowledge regarding
roundabouts to avoid using type 0x0c for them.

Gerd



> Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 22:56:47 +0100

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [mkgmap-dev] new branch NOD127
>
> Hi Gerd,
>
> I have tested routing with trunk r3093 and nod127 r3095. I have used
> default style, car/motorcycle routing, fastest route. I can confirm,
> that both version show a detour on Polish road 6. It seems to depend on
> many factor so it is difficult to isolate a meaningful example.
>
> Some notices:
>
> In Mapsource route depends on "Road selection" option in route
> preferences. I usually set it in the middle but when set to 75% of
> "Prefer Highways", routing becomes better.
>
> For nod127 branch there is difference in routing, when I set avoidances
> to unpaved road. It doesn't clear the problem, only detour is different.
>
> In BaseCamp I got the same detour in both version of mkgmap. For nod127
> detour changes, when I set avoidance to unpaved road, no change in
> trunk. In both version detour changes the same way if I set avoidances
> to residential streets. Any of highway avoidances changes detour and
> when I use avoid State Highways, route is correct. I'm not sure what is
> "State Highway" for BaseCamp, it could be primary road, which actually
> is used for route.
>
> BaseCamp is not able to calculate longer route with trunk, the same
> route is calculated with nod127 (including detour).
>
> Please write if you have any suggestion what could I test or what data
> could be useful for you.
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Andrzej
> _______________________________________________
> mkgmap-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev

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Re: new branch NOD127

Gerd Petermann
In reply to this post by Thorsten Kukuk
Hi Thorsten,

thanks for the info. Please make sure to use r3095 or newer for your tests,
previous versions contained a serious bug regarding route restrictions.

Gerd

> Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 09:26:55 +0100

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [mkgmap-dev] new branch NOD127
>
>
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Mar 06, Gerd Petermann wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I've created a new branch NOD127 :
> > http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/download/mkgmap-NOD127-r3086.zip
> >
> > This is used to test the latest findings regarding the NOD file format.
> > Most of it is understood now, thanks to Steve and his display tool :-)
>
> I made quite some tests the last two days with it.
>
> In principle the result is much better then with trunk, but
> sometimes I see really bad choices, like leaving a highway
> and using a primary/secondary street only to go back to the
> highway a little bit later. Or using highways which are much
> longer then the direct highway.
> What I found out: this happens always if the direct route
> would cross a tile border.
> And I'm not sure if this is really only a problem of the branch,
> because I can now see similar problems on trunk, too :(
>
> I have two styles: "streets", which contains only bigger routes
> and very few POIs, thus has really big tiles. Here the routing
> is very good.
> The second style, "basemap", contains all streets and a huge amount
> of POIs, thus small tiles. Here I suddenly see similar problems.
> So looks like at some point we introduced a problem with routing
> via tile borders, at least with MapSource.
> I'm currently trying to find out when this got worse.
>
> Thorsten
>
> --
> Thorsten Kukuk, Senior Architect SLES & Common Code Base
> SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg
> GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
> _______________________________________________
> mkgmap-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev

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Re: new branch NOD127

Gerd Petermann
In reply to this post by Thorsten Kukuk
Hi Thorsten,

Steve saw similar problems regarding tile boundaries.
He used an older version of MapSource (6.10.?)
and maybe tiles that were not split properly.
His problems were gone after updating to MapSource 6.16.3
and using a new split.

Gerd

> Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 09:26:55 +0100

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [mkgmap-dev] new branch NOD127
>
>
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Mar 06, Gerd Petermann wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I've created a new branch NOD127 :
> > http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/download/mkgmap-NOD127-r3086.zip
> >
> > This is used to test the latest findings regarding the NOD file format.
> > Most of it is understood now, thanks to Steve and his display tool :-)
>
> I made quite some tests the last two days with it.
>
> In principle the result is much better then with trunk, but
> sometimes I see really bad choices, like leaving a highway
> and using a primary/secondary street only to go back to the
> highway a little bit later. Or using highways which are much
> longer then the direct highway.
> What I found out: this happens always if the direct route
> would cross a tile border.
> And I'm not sure if this is really only a problem of the branch,
> because I can now see similar problems on trunk, too :(
>
> I have two styles: "streets", which contains only bigger routes
> and very few POIs, thus has really big tiles. Here the routing
> is very good.
> The second style, "basemap", contains all streets and a huge amount
> of POIs, thus small tiles. Here I suddenly see similar problems.
> So looks like at some point we introduced a problem with routing
> via tile borders, at least with MapSource.
> I'm currently trying to find out when this got worse.
>
> Thorsten
>
> --
> Thorsten Kukuk, Senior Architect SLES & Common Code Base
> SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg
> GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
> _______________________________________________
> mkgmap-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev

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Re: new branch NOD127

Gerd Petermann
In reply to this post by Gerd Petermann
Hi,

here are my findings:
If I comment the roundabout block  in the lines file
# Roundabouts
#junction=roundabout & highway=trunk [0x0c road_class=3 road_speed=2 resolution 18]
#junction=roundabout & highway=primary [0x0c road_class=3 road_speed=2 resolution 19]
#junction=roundabout & highway=secondary [0x0c road_class=2 road_speed=2 resolution 20]
#junction=roundabout & highway=tertiary [0x0c road_class=1 road_speed=1 resolution 21]
#junction=roundabout & highway=unclassified [0x0c road_class=1 road_speed=1 resolution 21]
#junction=roundabout [0x0c road_class=0 road_speed=1 resolution 22]

both MapSource and Basecamp stay on road 6, but you'll not see
any hints for the roundabouts, so that's no solution.
If I only change the road_speed for primary roads to the same value of normal primary roads (4):
junction=roundabout & highway=primary [0x0c road_class=3 road_speed=4 resolution 19]
the roundabouts are still avoided.

So, I agree with Andrzej:
If you prefer major roads, you have to change default settings in Basecamp to avoid
unpaved and resedential roads, in MapSource move the road selection closer to
"prefer Highways" (75%)

Gerd

From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 09:29:46 +0100
Subject: Re: [mkgmap-dev] new branch NOD127

Hi Andrzej,

The part of road 6 that is avoided has many roundabouts.
Maybe the Garmin algo doesn't like them?
I'll try to find out if we can use the new knowledge regarding
roundabouts to avoid using type 0x0c for them.

Gerd



> Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 22:56:47 +0100

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [mkgmap-dev] new branch NOD127
>
> Hi Gerd,
>
> I have tested routing with trunk r3093 and nod127 r3095. I have used
> default style, car/motorcycle routing, fastest route. I can confirm,
> that both version show a detour on Polish road 6. It seems to depend on
> many factor so it is difficult to isolate a meaningful example.
>
> Some notices:
>
> In Mapsource route depends on "Road selection" option in route
> preferences. I usually set it in the middle but when set to 75% of
> "Prefer Highways", routing becomes better.
>
> For nod127 branch there is difference in routing, when I set avoidances
> to unpaved road. It doesn't clear the problem, only detour is different.
>
> In BaseCamp I got the same detour in both version of mkgmap. For nod127
> detour changes, when I set avoidance to unpaved road, no change in
> trunk. In both version detour changes the same way if I set avoidances
> to residential streets. Any of highway avoidances changes detour and
> when I use avoid State Highways, route is correct. I'm not sure what is
> "State Highway" for BaseCamp, it could be primary road, which actually
> is used for route.
>
> BaseCamp is not able to calculate longer route with trunk, the same
> route is calculated with nod127 (including detour).
>
> Please write if you have any suggestion what could I test or what data
> could be useful for you.
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Andrzej
> _______________________________________________
> mkgmap-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev

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Re: new branch NOD127

Thorsten Kukuk
In reply to this post by Gerd Petermann
On Sun, Mar 09, Gerd Petermann wrote:

> Hi Thorsten,
>
> Steve saw similar problems regarding tile boundaries.
> He used an older version of MapSource (6.10.?)
> and maybe tiles that were not split properly.
> His problems were gone after updating to MapSource 6.16.3
> and using a new split.

Ah, ok, then you can ignore my findings and I will redo
the tests.
I used MapSource 6.15.7, because 6.16.x had quite some problems
when I installed it ages ago. With 6.16.3 it looks pretty good now.
But I wonder why I see the problems with MapSource 6.15.7 only now
suddenly, it worked very good for me for a long time.

Between, I used splitter r319 and mkgmap r3095.


  Thorsten

--
Thorsten Kukuk, Senior Architect SLES & Common Code Base
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg
GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
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