paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa

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paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa

john whelan-2
If it connects two settlements of twenty buildings then I think its unclassified.

Now what if it connects two buildings to a single building say 200 meters away, then scale it up to two groups of three or four huts.

Yes I understand if I can drive a 4x4 along it its a track or unclassified but sometimes that doesn't help as I have driven 4X4s in places that would be hard put to to call them even a path.

Thanks John

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Re: paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa

Ralf Stephan
In my opinion it's defined by exclusion: everything that ends in nature/crops
is a track. Everything else is just unclassified (!) except it fits another definition.

Regards,

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Re: paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa

john whelan-2
Unfortunately we seem to be into opinions and I hear different things from different people.

Could we either come to an consensus or have an authority please.

My own opinion is if its to a small group of huts its probably a track, if its to narrow for a 4X4 and winds its a path, and if I can see two wheel tracks then its a track unless its between two settlements of reasonable size then its unclassified.  Basically a track to me is something I wouldn't wish to take a car down.

Thanks John

On 11 July 2015 at 08:40, Ralf Stephan <[hidden email]> wrote:
In my opinion it's defined by exclusion: everything that ends in nature/crops
is a track. Everything else is just unclassified (!) except it fits another definition.

Regards,

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Re: paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa

Ralf Stephan
I would say the instructions to the task are the applicable authority.
They advise to "tag roads according the Highway Tag Africa wiki page"
There one can read:

    The Highway tag reflects the Economic and social dimension of the road.

    Tag:  The small roads going outside the residential areas, mainly for agricultural and forestry purposes. In general these roads do not have connecting function with other roads.

(I hope the applied emphasis is not lost with yxour mail program)

I can imagine this goes against the core with English speakers who
just know what a track is but I fear the word is used differently here.

Best,

On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 3:18 PM john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Unfortunately we seem to be into opinions and I hear different things from different people.

Could we either come to an consensus or have an authority please.

My own opinion is if its to a small group of huts its probably a track, if its to narrow for a 4X4 and winds its a path, and if I can see two wheel tracks then its a track unless its between two settlements of reasonable size then its unclassified.  Basically a track to me is something I wouldn't wish to take a car down.

Thanks John

On 11 July 2015 at 08:40, Ralf Stephan <[hidden email]> wrote:
In my opinion it's defined by exclusion: everything that ends in nature/crops
is a track. Everything else is just unclassified (!) except it fits another definition.

Regards,

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Re: paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa

john whelan-2
So you're saying something to a single hut is unclassified?

Thanks John

On 11 July 2015 at 11:17, Ralf Stephan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I would say the instructions to the task are the applicable authority.
They advise to "tag roads according the Highway Tag Africa wiki page"
There one can read:

    The Highway tag reflects the Economic and social dimension of the road.

    Tag:  The small roads going outside the residential areas, mainly for agricultural and forestry purposes. In general these roads do not have connecting function with other roads.

(I hope the applied emphasis is not lost with yxour mail program)

I can imagine this goes against the core with English speakers who
just know what a track is but I fear the word is used differently here.

Best,

On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 3:18 PM john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Unfortunately we seem to be into opinions and I hear different things from different people.

Could we either come to an consensus or have an authority please.

My own opinion is if its to a small group of huts its probably a track, if its to narrow for a 4X4 and winds its a path, and if I can see two wheel tracks then its a track unless its between two settlements of reasonable size then its unclassified.  Basically a track to me is something I wouldn't wish to take a car down.

Thanks John

On 11 July 2015 at 08:40, Ralf Stephan <[hidden email]> wrote:
In my opinion it's defined by exclusion: everything that ends in nature/crops
is a track. Everything else is just unclassified (!) except it fits another definition.

Regards,

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Re: paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa

Ralf Stephan
It's probably a path. However, many single huts in the mid of
farmland aren't residential anyway, but part-time dwellings for
farm workers, as was explained to me in a thread here last year.

On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 5:47 PM john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
So you're saying something to a single hut is unclassified?

Thanks John

On 11 July 2015 at 11:17, Ralf Stephan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I would say the instructions to the task are the applicable authority.
They advise to "tag roads according the Highway Tag Africa wiki page"
There one can read:

    The Highway tag reflects the Economic and social dimension of the road.

    Tag:  The small roads going outside the residential areas, mainly for agricultural and forestry purposes. In general these roads do not have connecting function with other roads.

(I hope the applied emphasis is not lost with yxour mail program)

I can imagine this goes against the core with English speakers who
just know what a track is but I fear the word is used differently here.

Best,

On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 3:18 PM john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Unfortunately we seem to be into opinions and I hear different things from different people.

Could we either come to an consensus or have an authority please.

My own opinion is if its to a small group of huts its probably a track, if its to narrow for a 4X4 and winds its a path, and if I can see two wheel tracks then its a track unless its between two settlements of reasonable size then its unclassified.  Basically a track to me is something I wouldn't wish to take a car down.

Thanks John

On 11 July 2015 at 08:40, Ralf Stephan <[hidden email]> wrote:
In my opinion it's defined by exclusion: everything that ends in nature/crops
is a track. Everything else is just unclassified (!) except it fits another definition.

Regards,

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Re: paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa

Suzan Reed


It depends on where in Africa the building/huts are as to how many people they hold, and if people live there long term or if they are simply shelter for workers. In mid Cameroon, for instance, one or two huts can house a large, extended family out in a rural area where farming is done. Some people live on their farmland all the time. Also, the kind of buildings/huts change in how they look from tribe to tribe. In mid Cameroon they change from round gray buildings to round white buildings with a small square spot on top. In other areas of Cameroon, there are round buildings joined together in a “pod”, that can look like a grove of trees. Few are square.

Researching the specific area being mapped is important. It does take effort as not much of some areas of Africa are well documented or photographed.

Suzan


> On Jul 11, 2015, at 8:52 AM, Ralf Stephan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 11 July 2015 at 11:17, Ralf Stephan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I would say the instructions to the task are the applicable authority.
> They advise to "tag roads according the Highway Tag Africa wiki page"
> There one can read:
>
>     The Highway tag reflects the Economic and social dimension of the road.
>
>     Tag:  The small roads going outside the residential areas, mainly for agricultural and forestry purposes. In general these roads do not have connecting function with other roads.


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Re: paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa

Eric Sibert
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
I'm jumping late in the discussion.

I will talk about my experience in Madagascar, which is not West  
Africa but more East Africa/Indian Ocean.

Lets consider Namoroka National Park area:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/-16.4473/45.4233

This a back country area with few population (5 hab./km²). All roads  
are unpaved.

I use tertiary for the main road that give access to the main town of  
"commune" although such road may only be used with 4WD cars. For  
instance:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/-16.5335/45.5859
In dry season, there should be a taxi-brousse on a daily basis.

I use unclassified for roads that frequently see motor vehicles.  
Frequently can means on a weekly basis with trucks or tractors  
collecting agricultural products. Between Vilanandro and Bekomanga  
(North), there is also a significant cattle car traffic (>10 per day).

In opposite, the road following the North-East limit of the park  
usually don't see motor vehicle but just several cattle cars per day.  
Although it is joining a significant village (Vilanandro) to a  
significant hamlet (Namoroka, 20 huts?), I classified it as track. One  
may think that this is an important road because this is the only one  
that is going to Namoroka. Indeed, most a people are going by foot and  
use other path instead of the track.

If you want more details, don't hesitate to ask. I may also have a  
bunch of geolocalized pictures.

Eric



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Re: paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa

Ralf Stephan
So, essentially, only locals have full knowledge and every tag by
nonlocals is preliminary?

On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 12:41 PM Eric Sibert <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm jumping late in the discussion.

I will talk about my experience in Madagascar, which is not West
Africa but more East Africa/Indian Ocean.

Lets consider Namoroka National Park area:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/-16.4473/45.4233

This a back country area with few population (5 hab./km²). All roads
are unpaved.

I use tertiary for the main road that give access to the main town of
"commune" although such road may only be used with 4WD cars. For
instance:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/-16.5335/45.5859
In dry season, there should be a taxi-brousse on a daily basis.

I use unclassified for roads that frequently see motor vehicles.
Frequently can means on a weekly basis with trucks or tractors
collecting agricultural products. Between Vilanandro and Bekomanga
(North), there is also a significant cattle car traffic (>10 per day).

In opposite, the road following the North-East limit of the park
usually don't see motor vehicle but just several cattle cars per day.
Although it is joining a significant village (Vilanandro) to a
significant hamlet (Namoroka, 20 huts?), I classified it as track. One
may think that this is an important road because this is the only one
that is going to Namoroka. Indeed, most a people are going by foot and
use other path instead of the track.

If you want more details, don't hesitate to ask. I may also have a
bunch of geolocalized pictures.

Eric



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Re: paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa

Thomas Gertin
In reply to this post by john whelan-2

I am adding to the discussion of highway tagging in West Africa. All of the projects that mapped highways in West Africa that I have seen or been a part of followed the guidance of the Highway Tag Africa wiki page (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa).

This past Spring I worked with some colleagues to create this tracing guide (http://hotosm.github.io/tracing-guides/guide/liberia.html) for mapping River Cress and Grand Gedeh Counties in West Africa. The tracing guide was based on our interpretation of the Highway Tag Africa wiki page. This tracing guide is quite good, and mappers appreciated the pictures and GIFs that show examples.

When building the tracing guide I came to a few conclusions. When reading the Highway Tag Africa wiki page I felt it have been wrong for me to alter the instructions. It would have resulted in inconsistent tagging in the region. I trust that a good amount of research and discussion has taken place to get it to the point it is now.

- The guidance in the wiki could have been clearer. Although I notice that is has improved since even a few months ago, there are now some example pictures in there.

- It is difficult to teach someone how to classify highways. There are eight types and often it is not clear when deciding between primary, secondary, tertiary, and unclassified highways because the only difference between them is the subjective size of the urban areas that are connected by them.

- The unclassified road type was unintuitive the first time I read the Highway Tag Africa wiki page. To me unclassified means something that has no classification. Yet in the Highway Tag Africa wiki page it clearly has a classification. I think the term ‘unclassified’ means something else in other places though.

I think having pre-set tags available as a plugins to iD editor should be a HOT goal, if it isn’t already. I don’t think we need there to be a universal tagging set. People who set-up projects on the Tasking manager could define the tags that fit best for the project. Although I think it would be useful to further standardize some tags across many geographical areas; it is important to maintain the flexibility for the geographical areas that need unique tags.

Thanks,

Tom G

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Re: paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa

Eric Sibert
In reply to this post by Ralf Stephan
Ralf Stephan <[hidden email]> a ?crit :

> So, essentially, only locals have full knowledge and every tag by
> nonlocals is preliminary?


Well... usual (or historical?) recommendation for OSM contributions is  
ground check ;-)

Eric



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Re: paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa

john whelan-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Gertin
Given that HOT mappers often do not have a PhD in African road classification and it appears to be subjective perhaps we can come up with a useful simplified interpretation or guidelines for inexperienced mappers?

My thoughts would be to suggest that mappers in general ignore primary, secondary, tertiary, classifications, if the road is mapped then a local or classification specialist can tag with one of these if required.

Cheerio John

On 16 July 2015 at 00:23, Thomas Gertin <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am adding to the discussion of highway tagging in West Africa. All of the projects that mapped highways in West Africa that I have seen or been a part of followed the guidance of the Highway Tag Africa wiki page (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa).

This past Spring I worked with some colleagues to create this tracing guide (http://hotosm.github.io/tracing-guides/guide/liberia.html) for mapping River Cress and Grand Gedeh Counties in West Africa. The tracing guide was based on our interpretation of the Highway Tag Africa wiki page. This tracing guide is quite good, and mappers appreciated the pictures and GIFs that show examples.

When building the tracing guide I came to a few conclusions. When reading the Highway Tag Africa wiki page I felt it have been wrong for me to alter the instructions. It would have resulted in inconsistent tagging in the region. I trust that a good amount of research and discussion has taken place to get it to the point it is now.

- The guidance in the wiki could have been clearer. Although I notice that is has improved since even a few months ago, there are now some example pictures in there.

- It is difficult to teach someone how to classify highways. There are eight types and often it is not clear when deciding between primary, secondary, tertiary, and unclassified highways because the only difference between them is the subjective size of the urban areas that are connected by them.

- The unclassified road type was unintuitive the first time I read the Highway Tag Africa wiki page. To me unclassified means something that has no classification. Yet in the Highway Tag Africa wiki page it clearly has a classification. I think the term ‘unclassified’ means something else in other places though.

I think having pre-set tags available as a plugins to iD editor should be a HOT goal, if it isn’t already. I don’t think we need there to be a universal tagging set. People who set-up projects on the Tasking manager could define the tags that fit best for the project. Although I think it would be useful to further standardize some tags across many geographical areas; it is important to maintain the flexibility for the geographical areas that need unique tags.

Thanks,

Tom G

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Re: paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa

Robert Banick
Hey all,

Speaking as a humanitarian GISer who's used HOT road layers quite a bit in a few crises, the road classifications really help. Primary / secondary / tertiary are useful, albeit vey incomplete, measures of the importance of roads that we can use to eyeball transit times etc. I would be strongly against ignoring those classification tags. I do agree we need more consistency in how they're applied however.

Perhaps we can have general regional guidelines and then someone gets charged with developing a country-specific taxonomy for any major activations?

Best,
Robert

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 8:44 AM, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Given that HOT mappers often do not have a PhD in African road classification and it appears to be subjective perhaps we can come up with a useful simplified interpretation or guidelines for inexperienced mappers?

My thoughts would be to suggest that mappers in general ignore primary, secondary, tertiary, classifications, if the road is mapped then a local or classification specialist can tag with one of these if required.

Cheerio John

On 16 July 2015 at 00:23, Thomas Gertin <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am adding to the discussion of highway tagging in West Africa. All of the projects that mapped highways in West Africa that I have seen or been a part of followed the guidance of the Highway Tag Africa wiki page (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa).

This past Spring I worked with some colleagues to create this tracing guide (http://hotosm.github.io/tracing-guides/guide/liberia.html) for mapping River Cress and Grand Gedeh Counties in West Africa. The tracing guide was based on our interpretation of the Highway Tag Africa wiki page. This tracing guide is quite good, and mappers appreciated the pictures and GIFs that show examples.

When building the tracing guide I came to a few conclusions. When reading the Highway Tag Africa wiki page I felt it have been wrong for me to alter the instructions. It would have resulted in inconsistent tagging in the region. I trust that a good amount of research and discussion has taken place to get it to the point it is now.

- The guidance in the wiki could have been clearer. Although I notice that is has improved since even a few months ago, there are now some example pictures in there.

- It is difficult to teach someone how to classify highways. There are eight types and often it is not clear when deciding between primary, secondary, tertiary, and unclassified highways because the only difference between them is the subjective size of the urban areas that are connected by them.

- The unclassified road type was unintuitive the first time I read the Highway Tag Africa wiki page. To me unclassified means something that has no classification. Yet in the Highway Tag Africa wiki page it clearly has a classification. I think the term ‘unclassified’ means something else in other places though.

I think having pre-set tags available as a plugins to iD editor should be a HOT goal, if it isn’t already. I don’t think we need there to be a universal tagging set. People who set-up projects on the Tasking manager could define the tags that fit best for the project. Although I think it would be useful to further standardize some tags across many geographical areas; it is important to maintain the flexibility for the geographical areas that need unique tags.

Thanks,

Tom G

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Re: paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa

john whelan-2
The suggestion is not that Primary / secondary / tertiary should not be mapped, often when the HOT mappers start the major highways are tagged Primary / secondary / tertiary the suggestion is to simplify guidance to new or inexperienced mappers.  76% of HOT Nepal mappers mapped for an hour or two and that was it.

I don't think we can afford to give them four hours training in how to classify a road, there would be no time left for mapping.

For these sort of highways then map something and let someone else upgrade the tag to Primary / secondary / tertiary is my suggestion.

Cheerio John

On 16 July 2015 at 08:55, Robert Banick <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey all,

Speaking as a humanitarian GISer who's used HOT road layers quite a bit in a few crises, the road classifications really help. Primary / secondary / tertiary are useful, albeit vey incomplete, measures of the importance of roads that we can use to eyeball transit times etc. I would be strongly against ignoring those classification tags. I do agree we need more consistency in how they're applied however.

Perhaps we can have general regional guidelines and then someone gets charged with developing a country-specific taxonomy for any major activations?

Best,
Robert

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 8:44 AM, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Given that HOT mappers often do not have a PhD in African road classification and it appears to be subjective perhaps we can come up with a useful simplified interpretation or guidelines for inexperienced mappers?

My thoughts would be to suggest that mappers in general ignore primary, secondary, tertiary, classifications, if the road is mapped then a local or classification specialist can tag with one of these if required.

Cheerio John

On 16 July 2015 at 00:23, Thomas Gertin <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am adding to the discussion of highway tagging in West Africa. All of the projects that mapped highways in West Africa that I have seen or been a part of followed the guidance of the Highway Tag Africa wiki page (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa).

This past Spring I worked with some colleagues to create this tracing guide (http://hotosm.github.io/tracing-guides/guide/liberia.html) for mapping River Cress and Grand Gedeh Counties in West Africa. The tracing guide was based on our interpretation of the Highway Tag Africa wiki page. This tracing guide is quite good, and mappers appreciated the pictures and GIFs that show examples.

When building the tracing guide I came to a few conclusions. When reading the Highway Tag Africa wiki page I felt it have been wrong for me to alter the instructions. It would have resulted in inconsistent tagging in the region. I trust that a good amount of research and discussion has taken place to get it to the point it is now.

- The guidance in the wiki could have been clearer. Although I notice that is has improved since even a few months ago, there are now some example pictures in there.

- It is difficult to teach someone how to classify highways. There are eight types and often it is not clear when deciding between primary, secondary, tertiary, and unclassified highways because the only difference between them is the subjective size of the urban areas that are connected by them.

- The unclassified road type was unintuitive the first time I read the Highway Tag Africa wiki page. To me unclassified means something that has no classification. Yet in the Highway Tag Africa wiki page it clearly has a classification. I think the term ‘unclassified’ means something else in other places though.

I think having pre-set tags available as a plugins to iD editor should be a HOT goal, if it isn’t already. I don’t think we need there to be a universal tagging set. People who set-up projects on the Tasking manager could define the tags that fit best for the project. Although I think it would be useful to further standardize some tags across many geographical areas; it is important to maintain the flexibility for the geographical areas that need unique tags.

Thanks,

Tom G

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Re: paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa

Robert Banick
That makes sense. Would you suggest putting road classification into the validation stage then? Or have a classification stage in between?

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 9:03 AM, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
The suggestion is not that Primary / secondary / tertiary should not be mapped, often when the HOT mappers start the major highways are tagged Primary / secondary / tertiary the suggestion is to simplify guidance to new or inexperienced mappers.  76% of HOT Nepal mappers mapped for an hour or two and that was it.

I don't think we can afford to give them four hours training in how to classify a road, there would be no time left for mapping.

For these sort of highways then map something and let someone else upgrade the tag to Primary / secondary / tertiary is my suggestion.

Cheerio John

On 16 July 2015 at 08:55, Robert Banick <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey all,

Speaking as a humanitarian GISer who's used HOT road layers quite a bit in a few crises, the road classifications really help. Primary / secondary / tertiary are useful, albeit vey incomplete, measures of the importance of roads that we can use to eyeball transit times etc. I would be strongly against ignoring those classification tags. I do agree we need more consistency in how they're applied however.

Perhaps we can have general regional guidelines and then someone gets charged with developing a country-specific taxonomy for any major activations?

Best,
Robert

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 8:44 AM, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Given that HOT mappers often do not have a PhD in African road classification and it appears to be subjective perhaps we can come up with a useful simplified interpretation or guidelines for inexperienced mappers?

My thoughts would be to suggest that mappers in general ignore primary, secondary, tertiary, classifications, if the road is mapped then a local or classification specialist can tag with one of these if required.

Cheerio John

On 16 July 2015 at 00:23, Thomas Gertin <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am adding to the discussion of highway tagging in West Africa. All of the projects that mapped highways in West Africa that I have seen or been a part of followed the guidance of the Highway Tag Africa wiki page (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa).

This past Spring I worked with some colleagues to create this tracing guide (http://hotosm.github.io/tracing-guides/guide/liberia.html) for mapping River Cress and Grand Gedeh Counties in West Africa. The tracing guide was based on our interpretation of the Highway Tag Africa wiki page. This tracing guide is quite good, and mappers appreciated the pictures and GIFs that show examples.

When building the tracing guide I came to a few conclusions. When reading the Highway Tag Africa wiki page I felt it have been wrong for me to alter the instructions. It would have resulted in inconsistent tagging in the region. I trust that a good amount of research and discussion has taken place to get it to the point it is now.

- The guidance in the wiki could have been clearer. Although I notice that is has improved since even a few months ago, there are now some example pictures in there.

- It is difficult to teach someone how to classify highways. There are eight types and often it is not clear when deciding between primary, secondary, tertiary, and unclassified highways because the only difference between them is the subjective size of the urban areas that are connected by them.

- The unclassified road type was unintuitive the first time I read the Highway Tag Africa wiki page. To me unclassified means something that has no classification. Yet in the Highway Tag Africa wiki page it clearly has a classification. I think the term ‘unclassified’ means something else in other places though.

I think having pre-set tags available as a plugins to iD editor should be a HOT goal, if it isn’t already. I don’t think we need there to be a universal tagging set. People who set-up projects on the Tasking manager could define the tags that fit best for the project. Although I think it would be useful to further standardize some tags across many geographical areas; it is important to maintain the flexibility for the geographical areas that need unique tags.

Thanks,

Tom G

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Re: paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa

Eric H. Christensen-2
In reply to this post by Robert Banick
On Thursday, July 16, 2015 08:55:53 AM Robert Banick wrote:
> Speaking as a humanitarian GISer who's used HOT road layers quite a bit in
> a few crises, the road classifications really help. Primary / secondary /
> tertiary are useful, albeit vey incomplete, measures of the importance of
> roads that we can use to eyeball transit times etc. I would be strongly
> against ignoring those classification tags. I do agree we need more
> consistency in how they're applied however.

I wonder if you used (or if you feel that it would be useful) surface entries
on these roads/paths that are being mapped.  I know I added some surface
entries when I was mapping parts of Columbia based on what I was seeing.  I
suspect a road classified as a primary route but is also dirt, or otherwise
not paved, would make a difference in calculating route times and knowing what
kind of vehicle would be best to send.

--Eric

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Re: paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa

john whelan-2
In reply to this post by Robert Banick
Validation can mean many things, in a HOT context to me it means going in and correcting the glaring errors.  Highway classification or missclassification is subjective as has been stated so I would not include putting the correct tags on Primary / secondary / tertiary as part of the primary role of the validator.  I would say changing highway=pedestrian to highway=path in a rural area of West Africa would be part of validation.

I work with three others who do validation, there aren't many of us who do it if you look through the projects there are very few that are validated completely and setting the bar to high means fewer people will do it.  Personally I think we need more validation whether that should be two passes, one a less experienced validator and one a more careful validation is one open to debate.  On one project I did a quick and dirty validation that picked up 80% of the errors and it was suggested that I should have done a more complete validation.  It's a judgement call, my feeling was the quality and reliability of the mapping was better after a quick and dirty validation which was not to my normal validation standard than without it.

In my opinion OSM mapping with no resource constraints often is done to a high quality standard, in HOT mapping we don't have enough trained and experienced mappers and validators to map to the standard we would like to have the maps mapped to in the time that the clients would like the map.

So what can we simplify?

Cheerio John

On 16 July 2015 at 09:13, Robert Banick <[hidden email]> wrote:
That makes sense. Would you suggest putting road classification into the validation stage then? Or have a classification stage in between?

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 9:03 AM, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
The suggestion is not that Primary / secondary / tertiary should not be mapped, often when the HOT mappers start the major highways are tagged Primary / secondary / tertiary the suggestion is to simplify guidance to new or inexperienced mappers.  76% of HOT Nepal mappers mapped for an hour or two and that was it.

I don't think we can afford to give them four hours training in how to classify a road, there would be no time left for mapping.

For these sort of highways then map something and let someone else upgrade the tag to Primary / secondary / tertiary is my suggestion.

Cheerio John

On 16 July 2015 at 08:55, Robert Banick <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey all,

Speaking as a humanitarian GISer who's used HOT road layers quite a bit in a few crises, the road classifications really help. Primary / secondary / tertiary are useful, albeit vey incomplete, measures of the importance of roads that we can use to eyeball transit times etc. I would be strongly against ignoring those classification tags. I do agree we need more consistency in how they're applied however.

Perhaps we can have general regional guidelines and then someone gets charged with developing a country-specific taxonomy for any major activations?

Best,
Robert

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 8:44 AM, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Given that HOT mappers often do not have a PhD in African road classification and it appears to be subjective perhaps we can come up with a useful simplified interpretation or guidelines for inexperienced mappers?

My thoughts would be to suggest that mappers in general ignore primary, secondary, tertiary, classifications, if the road is mapped then a local or classification specialist can tag with one of these if required.

Cheerio John

On 16 July 2015 at 00:23, Thomas Gertin <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am adding to the discussion of highway tagging in West Africa. All of the projects that mapped highways in West Africa that I have seen or been a part of followed the guidance of the Highway Tag Africa wiki page (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa).

This past Spring I worked with some colleagues to create this tracing guide (http://hotosm.github.io/tracing-guides/guide/liberia.html) for mapping River Cress and Grand Gedeh Counties in West Africa. The tracing guide was based on our interpretation of the Highway Tag Africa wiki page. This tracing guide is quite good, and mappers appreciated the pictures and GIFs that show examples.

When building the tracing guide I came to a few conclusions. When reading the Highway Tag Africa wiki page I felt it have been wrong for me to alter the instructions. It would have resulted in inconsistent tagging in the region. I trust that a good amount of research and discussion has taken place to get it to the point it is now.

- The guidance in the wiki could have been clearer. Although I notice that is has improved since even a few months ago, there are now some example pictures in there.

- It is difficult to teach someone how to classify highways. There are eight types and often it is not clear when deciding between primary, secondary, tertiary, and unclassified highways because the only difference between them is the subjective size of the urban areas that are connected by them.

- The unclassified road type was unintuitive the first time I read the Highway Tag Africa wiki page. To me unclassified means something that has no classification. Yet in the Highway Tag Africa wiki page it clearly has a classification. I think the term ‘unclassified’ means something else in other places though.

I think having pre-set tags available as a plugins to iD editor should be a HOT goal, if it isn’t already. I don’t think we need there to be a universal tagging set. People who set-up projects on the Tasking manager could define the tags that fit best for the project. Although I think it would be useful to further standardize some tags across many geographical areas; it is important to maintain the flexibility for the geographical areas that need unique tags.

Thanks,

Tom G

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Re: paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa

Eric H. Christensen-2
On Thursday, July 16, 2015 09:32:38 AM john whelan wrote:
> I would say changing highway=pedestrian to
> highway=path in a rural area of West Africa would be part of validation.

It's interesting that you say that as there is a discussion happening on OSM-
Talk, and actually in the person's diary[0], where they point out that 'path'
seems to be very generic and that we should be aiming to make the description
of these ways more specific.  While I agree with the thought I think there
might be better ways of going about it.

I'm not advocating either way but I wonder if you'd agree that people mapping
using aerial pictures should tag what appears to be a narrow, non-motorized
vehicle path as a 'path' and let the person on the ground update that
information with the more specific use (i.e. footpath, track, etc)?

[0] http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny/diary/35389 (scroll
down a bit to "highway=path, highway=footway problems")

--Eric

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Re: paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa

john whelan-2
>a narrow, non-motorized vehicle path as a 'path'

There are a lot of motorcycles around in these areas, small ones that are economical for gas, they use the paths.

Cheerio John



On 16 July 2015 at 09:43, Eric Christensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thursday, July 16, 2015 09:32:38 AM john whelan wrote:
> I would say changing highway=pedestrian to
> highway=path in a rural area of West Africa would be part of validation.

It's interesting that you say that as there is a discussion happening on OSM-
Talk, and actually in the person's diary[0], where they point out that 'path'
seems to be very generic and that we should be aiming to make the description
of these ways more specific.  While I agree with the thought I think there
might be better ways of going about it.

I'm not advocating either way but I wonder if you'd agree that people mapping
using aerial pictures should tag what appears to be a narrow, non-motorized
vehicle path as a 'path' and let the person on the ground update that
information with the more specific use (i.e. footpath, track, etc)?

[0] http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny/diary/35389 (scroll
down a bit to "highway=path, highway=footway problems")

--Eric

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Re: paths, tracks and unclassified in West Africa

Eric Sibert
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
> My thoughts would be to suggest that mappers in general ignore primary,
> secondary, tertiary, classifications, if the road is mapped then a local or
> classification specialist can tag with one of these if required.

So, highway=road is made for such a problem. Later, contributors with  
better local knowledge can make/improve classification. And it is  
easier to detect roads needing classification if they are tagged with  
"road" instead of "unclassified".

Eric





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