road names

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road names

topro
Hi OSM,  
   
I have a question/idea for the new feature to name road segments.  
Wouldn't it be even better if one could group 'line segments' to a 'road'  
and then name the 'road' once instead of naming all line segments  
belonging to one road with the same name?  
What do others think about that?  
   
Btw. thanks for the great work you coders do!  
   
Tobi  
   

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Re: road names

Simon Hewison
[hidden email] wrote:
> Hi OSM,  
>    
> I have a question/idea for the new feature to name road segments.  
> Wouldn't it be even better if one could group 'line segments' to a 'road'  
> and then name the 'road' once instead of naming all line segments  
> belonging to one road with the same name?  
> What do others think about that?  

Yes, according to the REST documentation, and data primitives, we should
have a way of naming a street, rather than just a line segment.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/wiki/index.php/DataPrimitives

I think the issue here is that the editing applet currently has no
facility to do a multple selection and form a street from multiple line
segments.

--
Simon Hewison

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Re: road names

Tom Carden
On 11/16/05, Simon Hewison <[hidden email]> wrote:

> [hidden email] wrote:
> > Hi OSM,
> >
> > I have a question/idea for the new feature to name road segments.
> > Wouldn't it be even better if one could group 'line segments' to a 'road'
> > and then name the 'road' once instead of naming all line segments
> > belonging to one road with the same name?
> > What do others think about that?
>
> Yes, according to the REST documentation, and data primitives, we should
> have a way of naming a street, rather than just a line segment.
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/wiki/index.php/DataPrimitives
>
> I think the issue here is that the editing applet currently has no
> facility to do a multple selection and form a street from multiple line
> segments.
>

Yep - there are already tickets for this problem in the new Trac system...

http://www.openstreetmap.org/trac/ticket/30
http://www.openstreetmap.org/trac/ticket/32

Your OpenStreetMap log-in should work with Trac, and I think everyone
can add tickets or comment on them.

The applet currently does the Simplest Possible Thing That Works in
almost all cases, and interface refinements / data model improvements
like this are high on the agenda.  Baby steps!

Best,

Tom.

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Re: road names

Alex Mauer
In reply to this post by Simon Hewison
Simon Hewison wrote:

> Yes, according to the REST documentation, and data primitives, we should
> have a way of naming a street, rather than just a line segment.

But note that it is often useful to be able to name a segment as well
... e.g. with address ranges for a particular block.

--
Bad - You get pulled over for doing 90 in a school zone and you're drunk
off your ass again at three in the afternoon.
Worse - The cop is drunk too, and he's a mean drunk.
FUCK! - A mean drunk that's actually a swarm of semi-sentient
flesh-eating beetles.
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Re: Re: road names

Tom Carden
On 11/16/05, Alex Mauer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Simon Hewison wrote:
>
> > Yes, according to the REST documentation, and data primitives, we should
> > have a way of naming a street, rather than just a line segment.
>
> But note that it is often useful to be able to name a segment as well
> ... e.g. with address ranges for a particular block.
>

Yes, and in the UK at least we have streets which change name half
way, and other such strangeness, so you definitely want to be able to
at least override street name data at the line segment level.

But are address ranges really the same sort of information as street
name?  Can you show us an example of a map which shows them?  I
suspect they'd be a separate tag, but I'd be interested to see how
other maps deal with displaying them.

Tom.

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RE: Re: road names

ANDY ROBINSON-2
Tom Carden Wrote on 17 November 2005 00:01:

>But are address ranges really the same sort of information as street
>name?  Can you show us an example of a map which shows them?  I
>suspect they'd be a separate tag, but I'd be interested to see how
>other maps deal with displaying them.

Maporama places (very helpfully) the house number closest to the street
intersections and elsewhere:

<URL:http://www.maporama.com/share/map.asp?SESSIONID=%7BE90975A8-E19E-491C-8
925-84CE49CC7119%7D&NewMapSize=568%2C380&NewMapStyle=maporama_en&units=1&cus
tomize.x=21&customize.y=12>

Andy Robinson


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Re: road names

Alex Mauer
In reply to this post by Tom Carden
Tom Carden wrote:
> But are address ranges really the same sort of information as street
> name?  Can you show us an example of a map which shows them?  I
> suspect they'd be a separate tag, but I'd be interested to see how
> other maps deal with displaying them.
>
> Tom.

Well, I find that roadmap ( http://roadmap.digitalomaha.net/ ) uses them
to good effect.  It has come in handy to be able to search for, e.g.
"1600 block of Mc Culloch Street"...or to identify what block you're on
currently.  And it has (obvious?) implications for navigation as well,
to be able to get to a specific block and an estimated address instead
of just a street name.  And of course, address ranges typically map well
to line segments, at least here in the US.

--
Bad - You get pulled over for doing 90 in a school zone and you're drunk
off your ass again at three in the afternoon.
Worse - The cop is drunk too, and he's a mean drunk.
FUCK! - A mean drunk that's actually a swarm of semi-sentient
flesh-eating beetles.
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Re: Re: road names

Tom Carden
In reply to this post by ANDY ROBINSON-2
On 11/17/05, Andy Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Tom Carden Wrote on 17 November 2005 00:01:
>
> >But are address ranges really the same sort of information as street
> >name?  Can you show us an example of a map which shows them?  I
> >suspect they'd be a separate tag, but I'd be interested to see how
> >other maps deal with displaying them.
>
> Maporama places (very helpfully) the house number closest to the street
> intersections and elsewhere:
>
> <URL:http://www.maporama.com/share/map.asp?SESSIONID=%7BE90975A8-E19E-491C-8
> 925-84CE49CC7119%7D&NewMapSize=568%2C380&NewMapStyle=maporama_en&units=1&cus
> tomize.x=21&customize.y=12>
>

That is very helpful, and we should look at how best to support similar things.

But I don't think we should be writing address ranges in the segment
"name" just yet - it would need more careful planning than that.

Tom.

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Re: Re: road names

David Cantrell (at home)
In reply to this post by Tom Carden
On Thu, Nov 17, 2005 at 12:00:45AM +0000, Tom Carden wrote:


> Yes, and in the UK at least we have streets which change name half
> way

And which then change back again a bit later!  Yay!

> But are address ranges really the same sort of information as street
> name?  Can you show us an example of a map which shows them?

Some editions of the London A-Z do.  It's very useful when you are (eg)
wanting no 1000 Foo Street, and depending on which end no 1000 is at
you're better off going to a different tube station.

--
David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

One person can change the world, but most of the time they shouldn't
    -- Marge Simpson

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Re: Re: road names

Tom Carden
On 11/17/05, David Cantrell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2005 at 12:00:45AM +0000, Tom Carden wrote:
> > But are address ranges really the same sort of information as street
> > name?  Can you show us an example of a map which shows them?
>
> Some editions of the London A-Z do.  It's very useful when you are (eg)
> wanting no 1000 Foo Street, and depending on which end no 1000 is at
> you're better off going to a different tube station.
>

Sure. what I was getting at was that I don't think that "1000-1500 Foo
Street" should be entered as the name of a segment in OSM right now.
But if people think that "segment runs from 1000-1500 on the left and
1051-1361 on the right" is useful, we might like to think of how to
encode and display it.

The maporama way is basic but fun (just little numbers at the end of
segments), the RoadMap way (to display "1000-1500 Foo Street") might
also work for a selected street.  The Roadmap could be implemented as
an extended description I suppose, and the maporama way could allow
segments to have "leftstart" "rightstart" "leftend" and "rightend"
numbers.

Andy's point that it becomes valuable for search is important too.

Tom.

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Re: Re: road names

Richard Fairhurst
Quoting Tom Carden <[hidden email]>:

> Sure. what I was getting at was that I don't think that "1000-1500 Foo
> Street" should be entered as the name of a segment in OSM right now.
> But if people think that "segment runs from 1000-1500 on the left and
> 1051-1361 on the right" is useful, we might like to think of how to
> encode and display it.

I wonder if there's a freethepostcode connection in here somewhere. Postcodes
are usually defined as "Nine Acres Close, odd numbers from 1 to 31" or similar.

Storing such information for Openstreetmap could greatly increase the usefulness
of the freethepostcode dataset, and vice versa.

Richard

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RE: Re: road names

ANDY ROBINSON-2
Richard Fairhurst wrote: 17 November 2005 11:54

>
>I wonder if there's a freethepostcode connection in here somewhere.
>Postcodes
>are usually defined as "Nine Acres Close, odd numbers from 1 to 31" or
>similar.
>
>Storing such information for Openstreetmap could greatly increase the
>usefulness
>of the freethepostcode dataset, and vice versa.
>
I have a copy of the Midlands 1, 2000 Postal Address Book. Looking at the
Postcode Directory, the data for each street is generally:
Runs of Odd numbers; Runs of even numbers; and then specific named buildings
(with or without a number) which generally seem to have a postcode from the
odd or even runs already listed unless they are large addresses in which
case they have their own.

Our problem is of course that we cannot use the Postcode data that says that
Henly Street in Birmingham has a postcode B11 1J? for odd numbers 7 to 47 as
that would presumably infringe the copyright. We can however fairly easily
establish what the property numbers are for each side from one junction to
the next (or one end of street to the other). That just leaves long streets
which need to be subdivided further in some way. More tricky that as what do
you measure an actual numbered property against other than the gps - very
time consuming and probably not practicable on a wide scale.

Andy Robinson


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Re: road names

Alex Mauer
In reply to this post by Tom Carden
Tom Carden wrote:

> Sure. what I was getting at was that I don't think that "1000-1500 Foo
> Street" should be entered as the name of a segment in OSM right now.
> But if people think that "segment runs from 1000-1500 on the left and
> 1051-1361 on the right" is useful, we might like to think of how to
> encode and display it.

I don't think the left/right distinction is terribly useful. It's nearly
always sufficient, both for navigation and for ease of data entry, to
know what block a particular number is on (though it may be interesting
to provide co-ordinates for each individual house...).  Segments are
also not the best unit for this, as roads may be divided into multiple
segments (curved or long roads).  I just wanted to get the idea out
there that it is useful to distinguish units smaller than the entire road.

--
Bad - You get pulled over for doing 90 in a school zone and you're drunk
off your ass again at three in the afternoon.
Worse - The cop is drunk too, and he's a mean drunk.
FUCK! - A mean drunk that's actually a swarm of semi-sentient
flesh-eating beetles.
OpenPGP key id: 0x51192FF2 @ subkeys.pgp.net

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Re: Re: road names

Tom Carden
On 11/17/05, Alex Mauer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I don't think the left/right distinction is terribly useful. It's nearly
> always sufficient, both for navigation and for ease of data entry, to
> know what block a particular number is on

We don't model blocks though, we model street segments.

> (though it may be interesting
> to provide co-ordinates for each individual house...).

Except that left/right seems essential if you want to draw it like
maporama does?

I'm not interested in "blocks", if I can think of a general case which
supports all the subtleties people are describing.

> Segments are
> also not the best unit for this, as roads may be divided into multiple
> segments (curved or long roads).

So you just specify numbers at the start of the first curve segment
and the end of the last one.  No big deal.

> I just wanted to get the idea out
> there that it is useful to distinguish units smaller than the entire road.
>

But OSM almost certainly won't have units smaller than the entire
road, except for segments, for the foreseeable future.

Tom.

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Re: Re: road names

Simon Hewison
In reply to this post by Tom Carden
Tom Carden wrote:
> Yes, and in the UK at least we have streets which change name half
> way, and other such strangeness, so you definitely want to be able to
> at least override street name data at the line segment level.
>
> But are address ranges really the same sort of information as street
> name?  Can you show us an example of a map which shows them?  I
> suspect they'd be a separate tag, but I'd be interested to see how
> other maps deal with displaying them.

Pardon the windows avi file, but here's a screen capture video of the
"Route 66" software showing street numbers for somewhere in Tom's part
of the world.

http://www.zymurgy.org/~simon/route66.avi

I guess I'd better put the usual disclaimer here about not copying the
data from commercial products. Don't believe street numbers (or names)
you find on a commercial map, they might be intentionally wrong.

The data they use is from Tele Atlas, and street numbers are sometimes
wrong, but I think that the video I've recorded shows roughly how Tele
Atlas store street numbers and streets against line segments in their
data structures.

..which appears to be something like each line segment can have up to
four attributes relating to street number ranges and step sizes on each
edge of the line

eg.

(ascii art - view in monospaced font)

           1    step 2     33 35   step 2   47
          +------------------+----------------+
           2    step 2     34 36   step 2   48

With a sample size of about 50 streets that I have personal experience
of, the data from Tele Atlas has at least two mistakes:

The street that I live on has the house number sequence wrong.
A street that I went to earlier in the week is down as "Elizabeth Close"
rather than the correct "Queen Elizabeth Close" (as per council street
sign, and Royal Mail)

--
Simon Hewison

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Re: road names

Alex Mauer
In reply to this post by Tom Carden
Tom Carden wrote:
> On 11/17/05, Alex Mauer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>I don't think the left/right distinction is terribly useful. It's nearly
>>always sufficient, both for navigation and for ease of data entry, to
>>know what block a particular number is on
>
> We don't model blocks though, we model street segments.

Right...but either way, left and right are not very useful.  And which
side's left and which is right?

If I'm on Foo Street, I don't much care which side #1542 is on, and
which side #1565 is on.  Getting to the correct block of the street is
sufficient.

> Except that left/right seems essential if you want to draw it like
> maporama does?

If we take it as read that that aspect of maporama's visualization is
useful, yes.  I don't think it is.  Again, it doesn't matter which side
of the street the numbers are.

> I'm not interested in "blocks", if I can think of a general case which
> supports all the subtleties people are describing.

For navigation or "object selection" (e.g. clicking on a street section
in roadmap) blocks are more interesting than segments or whole streets,
really.  "All segments between two junctions/intersections" is what I
mean by "blocks", btw..

> So you just specify numbers at the start of the first curve segment
> and the end of the last one.  No big deal.

Which end is the start, which is the end?


> But OSM almost certainly won't have units smaller than the entire
> road, except for segments, for the foreseeable future.

Well, it doesn't have entire roads yet, either...but before saying that
roads are the smallest useful unit above segments, as the original post
and immediate replies seemed to say, other things should be considered.

--
Bad - You get pulled over for doing 90 in a school zone and you're drunk
off your ass again at three in the afternoon.
Worse - The cop is drunk too, and he's a mean drunk.
FUCK! - A mean drunk that's actually a swarm of semi-sentient
flesh-eating beetles.
OpenPGP key id: 0x51192FF2 @ subkeys.pgp.net

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Re: Re: road names

Tom Carden
On 11/17/05, Alex Mauer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Tom Carden wrote:
> > On 11/17/05, Alex Mauer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >>I don't think the left/right distinction is terribly useful. It's nearly
> >>always sufficient, both for navigation and for ease of data entry, to
> >>know what block a particular number is on
> >
> > We don't model blocks though, we model street segments.
>
> Right...but either way, left and right are not very useful.  And which
> side's left and which is right?
>

Depends on the order the points were entered, but it's trivial to
define a convention for this if we need one.

> If I'm on Foo Street, I don't much care which side #1542 is on, and
> which side #1565 is on.  Getting to the correct block of the street is
> sufficient.
>
> > Except that left/right seems essential if you want to draw it like
> > maporama does?
>
> If we take it as read that that aspect of maporama's visualization is
> useful, yes.  I don't think it is.

Fair enough.

> Again, it doesn't matter which side
> of the street the numbers are.
>

Except if they don't match up by block, like most European streets -
in which case you need a range for the odd side and a range for the
even side.

> > I'm not interested in "blocks", if I can think of a general case which
> > supports all the subtleties people are describing.
>
> For navigation or "object selection" (e.g. clicking on a street section
> in roadmap) blocks are more interesting than segments or whole streets,
> really.  "All segments between two junctions/intersections" is what I
> mean by "blocks", btw..

If that's what you mean by blocks then sure, I agree with this part,
and it's a sensible way to select stuff.

>
> > So you just specify numbers at the start of the first curve segment
> > and the end of the last one.  No big deal.
>
> Which end is the start, which is the end?
>

The first node clicked on and the last node clicked on, when you
select a "block" as you've described it.  The first and second nodes
in a segment, otherwise.  Not that it matters, I can think of a few
ways the interface would work for labelling in a maporama way (if we
wanted to) which wouldn't require the user to know the difference
between left and right for a segment.

>
> > But OSM almost certainly won't have units smaller than the entire
> > road, except for segments, for the foreseeable future.
>
> Well, it doesn't have entire roads yet, either...

The internal model does, and the API might (I haven't checked) and the
interface will follow soon.

> but before saying that
> roads are the smallest useful unit above segments, as the original post
> and immediate replies seemed to say, other things should be considered.
>

But do the other things need to be modelled explicitlty in the
database?  Sounds like they're trivial to infer in the client, as you
described for blocks above.

Tom.

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Re: Re: road names

Lars Aronsson
In reply to this post by Alex Mauer
Alex Mauer wrote:

> (though it may be interesting
> to provide co-ordinates for each individual house...).

This would obviously be "the right thing" to do, and I think we'll
regret if we start to do it in any other fashion.  In the end we
might want to have building and house lot boundaries too, but a
single center coordinate for each entrance (house number) would be
nice.  You can do great by just having every 10th number or one
number at every street corner.  But a coordinate for the entrance
is the data structure I'd recommend.

  No. Street        Lat        Long
  --- -----------   ---------  ---------
  12A Syrengatan    58.407327  15.598719
  12B Syrengatan    58.407232  15.598462
  14A Syrengatan    58.407119  15.598236
  14B Syrengatan    58.407248  15.598075

These coordinates are not in line, because the buildings 12 and 14
are not in line, but zig-zag along the street, see
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=58.407232,15.598462&spn=0.004,0.004&t=h&hl=en

Of course, in the real case you wouldn't grab these coordinates
from Google Maps, but would mark a waypoint with your own GPS
receiver.  Or take a digital photo of the entrance with the house
number visible, then use the timestamp to get the coordinate from
your track log (just upload both images and track log, and the
server will sort it out).  We'd end up with our own "Block View"
system, http://www.amazon.com/gp/yp/B00046TK2O/002-4052702-7562444

Now for another thing:

Sometimes a road segment is too long and needs to be split in two,
either to better adjust it to a curve or because an exit or
crossing needs to be added.  With today's applet, there is no way
to split a segment (i.e. insert a new point in the middle), but
the old one has to be deleted, a new point added, and then two new
segments added.  Does this mean all the metadata connected to the
old segment are lost?


--
  Lars Aronsson ([hidden email])
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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Re: Re: road names

Lars Aronsson
In reply to this post by Alex Mauer
Alex Mauer wrote:

> Right...but either way, left and right are not very useful.  And which
> side's left and which is right?
>
> If I'm on Foo Street, I don't much care which side #1542 is on, and
> which side #1565 is on.  Getting to the correct block of the street is
> sufficient.
>
> Which end is the start, which is the end?


This will be very different in different countries.  In the U.S.,
house No. 1565 is house 65 within block #15, and ten blocks away
from #515.  In fact, 1565 is an unlikely number because that would
mean block 15 has at least 65 buildings/entrances.

In Sweden, numbers start at 1 near the city center and increase as
you get farther out, without respect to the blocks.  Odd numbers
are on one side, and even numbers on the other, sometimes very
much out of synch: No. 17 might be opposite to No. 68, if No.
12-58 were opposite to a large park or a railroad.  If house 56
was replaced by two new ones, they become 56A and 56B.  If a new
building has five entrances, they are most typically 13A thru 13E.
Furthermore, blocks have names of their own in Sweden, and the
property lot is named by the block name and some number that
doesn't have anything to do with the street address.

The only sure thing is that every unique street address maps to a
physical place, i.e. one geographic coordinate.



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Re: road names

Alex Mauer
Lars Aronsson wrote:

> In fact, 1565 is an unlikely number because that would
> mean block 15 has at least 65 buildings/entrances.

Not at all.  The numbers are allocated more or less on how far along the
block they are.  For example, my house number is 1629.  It is the third
house on this side of the block, and there are four on the opposite side.

-Alex Mauer "hawke"
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