shelter_type=rock_shelter

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shelter_type=rock_shelter

Andrew Harvey-3
The wiki documents amenity=shelter + shelter_type=rock_shelter [1] as "A rock shelter is a shallow cave-like opening at the base of a bluff or cliff." It has ~500 uses globally.

In Australia these rock shelters known as rock overhangs or cliff overhangs are extensively mistagged as natural=cave_entrance. Although many of these overhangs are named as a cave like "Darks Cave", I don't think they are quite the same as natural=cave_entrance, which seems more for entrances to underground cavities which you walk into with at times a narrow  opening, ie a proper cave.

The Australian community has indicated that amenity=shelter + shelter_type=rock_shelter is not an appropriate tag in this case since these are natural features not man made features so shouldn't be under the amenity key [2] [3] [4].

I think the amenity/natural key is just a historical artefact, and doesn't need to strictly imply natural/non-natural.

Should we create a new natural tag and deprecate shelter_type=rock_shelter, or just accept the tag as in use?

Appreciate any comments either way. I just want to see single globally accepted tag to avoid tag proliferation.

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Re: shelter_type=rock_shelter

marc marc
Le 14.04.19 à 14:13, Andrew Harvey a écrit :
> natural=cave_entrance

if it were to be done from scratch, the right way would have
been natural/man_made=cave on a node if we don't know
its extent + entrance=yes

> The Australian community has indicated that amenity=shelter +
> shelter_type=rock_shelter is not an appropriate tag in this case since
> these are natural features not man made features so shouldn't be under
> the amenity key [2] [3] [4].

amenity describes often/also a function,
not if done with a natural<>man_made stuff.
e.g. a parking on "natural" ground remains described
with amenity=parking

what is the solution proposed in this discussion?
natural=shelter for natural shelters ?
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Re: shelter_type=rock_shelter

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Andrew Harvey-3


sent from a phone

> On 14. Apr 2019, at 14:13, Andrew Harvey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The Australian community has indicated that amenity=shelter + shelter_type=rock_shelter is not an appropriate tag in this case since these are natural features not man made features so shouldn't be under the amenity key


shelter is under the amenity key because it is shelter _for_ humans, it implies minimum dimensions (shelter for mice would have different requirements). It is one way to look on things and it is not the only way of course, you could add natural=overhang or whatever, to distinguish them.


Cheers, Martin


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Re: shelter_type=rock_shelter

Andrew Harvey-3

At the moment consensus on talk-au is to use a new tag, natural=rock_overhang.

On Mon, 15 Apr 2019 at 06:29, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
shelter is under the amenity key because it is shelter _for_ humans, it implies minimum dimensions (shelter for mice would have different requirements). It is one way to look on things and it is not the only way of course, you could add natural=overhang or whatever, to distinguish them.

I agree, keeping amenity=shelter + shelter_type=rock_shelter helps let you tag only those rock overhangs used by humans as shelters. So ensures we're only tagging those actually useful for people.

I agree this could be done in conjunction with natural=rock_overhang.

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Re: shelter_type=rock_shelter

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by dieterdreist



Apr 14, 2019, 10:28 PM by [hidden email]:


sent from a phone
On 14. Apr 2019, at 14:13, Andrew Harvey <[hidden email]> wrote:

The Australian community has indicated that amenity=shelter + shelter_type=rock_shelter is not an appropriate tag in this case since these are natural features not man made features so shouldn't be under the amenity key


shelter is under the amenity key because it is shelter _for_ humans, it implies minimum dimensions (shelter for mice would have different requirements). It is one way to look on things and it is not the only way of course, you could add natural=overhang or whatever, to distinguish them.
I also see no problem with tagging such shelters - at least ones noticed, found by humans
and used by humans as a shelters - under amenity key.

amenity=shelter + shelter_type=rock_shelter seems perfectly fine to me

Adding also natural=rosk_shelter (or similar) in addition would be also perfectly fine.

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Re: shelter_type=rock_shelter

dieterdreist


Am Mo., 15. Apr. 2019 um 11:11 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]>:

Adding also natural=rosk_shelter (or similar) in addition would be also perfectly fine.



natural=rock_shelter would not seem perfectly fine to me, it describes a function, hence should be amenity or something else, but not "natural". "natural" should describe the natural feature that provides the shelter.
(fwiw, I would not add any natural=* and just go with "shelter_type=rock shelter", as long as the natural feature isn't interesting apart from the shelter property).

Cheers,
Martin

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