shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

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shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

Daniel Korn
Hello,

I currently found out that shops that sell clothes are either tagged with

     shop=clothes

or with

     shop=fashion

but I can't find out when to use which.

Can anybody clarify?

Cheers,
Daniel

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Re: shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

Jarek Piórkowski
On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 09:42, dktue <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I currently found out that shops that sell clothes are either tagged with
>      shop=clothes
> or with
>      shop=fashion
> but I can't find out when to use which.
>
> Can anybody clarify?

There is a continuum with shop=clothes, shop=fashion, and into
shop=boutique. As far as I know there is no clear definition
currently. But there also isn't a clear distinction in the real world.

shop=clothes is by far the more widely used one:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=shop&value=clothes 230
thousand uses, https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=shop&value=fashion
7 thousand, https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=shop&value=boutique
15 thousand.

My interpretation has been that shop=boutique is significantly more
expensive than shop=clothes. To be honest I wouldn't use shop=fashion
unless neither "clothes" nor "boutique" fit very well for whatever
reason.

--Jarek

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Re: shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

Jean-Marc Liotier
In reply to this post by Daniel Korn
On Wed, March 6, 2019 3:42 pm, dktue wrote:
>
> I currently found out that shops that sell clothes are either tagged with
> shop=clothes or with shop=fashion
> but I can't find out when to use which.

shop=clothes only sell unfashionable clothes.

But seriously, shop=clothes is factual whereas shop=fashion is a matter of
appreciation, so I would go with shop=clothes and let subsidiary tags
optionally describe the particular sort of clothes sold.

And then there is shop=boutique which I hate with a particular passion,
not just because is is as subjective as shop=fashion but also because
"boutique" is French for "small shop" and it is therefore used all over
West Africa to tag all sorts of shops...

Links:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dboutique
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dclothes
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dfashion

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Re: shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

Enock Seth Nyamador-2
Jean-Marc I agree with about shop=boutique much used in West Africa. The reason being that the shops have boutique attached to their names.

Best,
- Enock


Le mer. 6 mars 2019 à 14:51, Jean-Marc Liotier <[hidden email]> a écrit :
On Wed, March 6, 2019 3:42 pm, dktue wrote:
>
> I currently found out that shops that sell clothes are either tagged with
> shop=clothes or with shop=fashion
> but I can't find out when to use which.

shop=clothes only sell unfashionable clothes.

But seriously, shop=clothes is factual whereas shop=fashion is a matter of
appreciation, so I would go with shop=clothes and let subsidiary tags
optionally describe the particular sort of clothes sold.

And then there is shop=boutique which I hate with a particular passion,
not just because is is as subjective as shop=fashion but also because
"boutique" is French for "small shop" and it is therefore used all over
West Africa to tag all sorts of shops...

Links:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dboutique
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dclothes
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dfashion

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Re: shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

Jean-Marc Liotier
On Wed, March 6, 2019 3:58 pm, Enock Seth Nyamador wrote:
> Jean-Marc I agree with about shop=boutique much used in West Africa. The
> reason being that the shops have boutique attached to their names.

Indeed. In Dakar and Bamako, when you need to buy a Fanta, tu vas à la
boutique... So I can't really blame contributors for using the word that
sound most natural to them.

Depending on how big the shop is, solutions would be shop=kiosk (after
years of pushing we are beginning to see that one adopted) and
shop=convenience (which is not used enough)


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Re: shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

Enock Seth Nyamador-2
Absolutely. shop=kiosk is the best for these shops; which you mostly stand outside to buy goods. shop=convenience if you can enter the shop I tell people now a days.

Le mer. 6 mars 2019 à 15:07, Jean-Marc Liotier <[hidden email]> a écrit :
On Wed, March 6, 2019 3:58 pm, Enock Seth Nyamador wrote:
> Jean-Marc I agree with about shop=boutique much used in West Africa. The
> reason being that the shops have boutique attached to their names.

Indeed. In Dakar and Bamako, when you need to buy a Fanta, tu vas à la
boutique... So I can't really blame contributors for using the word that
sound most natural to them.

Depending on how big the shop is, solutions would be shop=kiosk (after
years of pushing we are beginning to see that one adopted) and
shop=convenience (which is not used enough)


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--
Best,
-Enock

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Re: shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

Tobias Zwick
In reply to this post by Jean-Marc Liotier
kiosk and convenience is supposed to be the same? I always used it like

- convenience: small supermarket that is usually too small to have shopping carts but still also sells things of daily need (shampoo, toilet paper, milk, cornflakes, bread and spread,...). The typical 7-Eleven store (doesn't exist in Germany btw)

- kiosk: very small store that usually only sells drinks, newspapers, magazines, snacks, cigarettes and the like. Sometimes even so small that you can't go inside but buy things through the window

Tobias

Am 6. März 2019 16:06:25 MEZ schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier <[hidden email]>:

>On Wed, March 6, 2019 3:58 pm, Enock Seth Nyamador wrote:
>> Jean-Marc I agree with about shop=boutique much used in West Africa.
>The
>> reason being that the shops have boutique attached to their names.
>
>Indeed. In Dakar and Bamako, when you need to buy a Fanta, tu vas à la
>boutique... So I can't really blame contributors for using the word
>that
>sound most natural to them.
>
>Depending on how big the shop is, solutions would be shop=kiosk (after
>years of pushing we are beginning to see that one adopted) and
>shop=convenience (which is not used enough)
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tagging mailing list
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>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

Jean-Marc Liotier
On Wed, March 6, 2019 4:23 pm, Tobias Zwick wrote:
>
> - convenience: small supermarket that is usually too small to have
> shopping carts but still also sells things of daily need (shampoo, toilet
> paper, milk, cornflakes, bread and spread,...). The typical 7-Eleven store
> (doesn't exist in Germany btw)
>
> - kiosk: very small store that usually only sells drinks, newspapers,
> magazines, snacks, cigarettes and the like. Sometimes even so small that
> you can't go inside but buy things through the window

This is correct, modulo local cultural differences. Enock's razor sums it
up nicely:
- stand outside to buy goods -> shop=convenience
- you can enter the shop -> shop=kiosk


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Re: shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

Jean-Marc Liotier
On Wed, March 6, 2019 4:28 pm, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
>
> Enock's razor sums it up nicely:
> - stand outside to buy goods -> shop=convenience
> - you can enter the shop -> shop=kiosk

Aaaaaargl. I inverted it - gross mistake, sorry... So, again but in the
correct order:

Enock's shop razor:
- stand outside to buy goods -> shop=kiosk
- you can enter the shop -> shop=convenience


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Re: shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Tobias Zwick
Yes, shop is not becoming shop=kiosk just becomes you are unable to enter inside.

Shop selling only clothes is still shop=clothes even if it is so small that you are unable
to enter inside.

Shop selling only cars is still shop=car even if it is so small that you are unable
to enter inside.

In some funny cases kiosk-type shops (sells drinks, newspapers, magazines, snacks,
cigarettes and the like) may be big enough that you can enter (for example at train
stations).


Mar 6, 2019, 4:23 PM by [hidden email]:
kiosk and convenience is supposed to be the same? I always used it like

- convenience: small supermarket that is usually too small to have shopping carts but still also sells things of daily need (shampoo, toilet paper, milk, cornflakes, bread and spread,...). The typical 7-Eleven store (doesn't exist in Germany btw)

- kiosk: very small store that usually only sells drinks, newspapers, magazines, snacks, cigarettes and the like. Sometimes even so small that you can't go inside but buy things through the window

Tobias

Am 6. März 2019 16:06:25 MEZ schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier <[hidden email]>:
>On Wed, March 6, 2019 3:58 pm, Enock Seth Nyamador wrote:
Jean-Marc I agree with about shop=boutique much used in West Africa.
>The
reason being that the shops have boutique attached to their names.
>Indeed. In Dakar and Bamako, when you need to buy a Fanta, tu vas à la
>boutique... So I can't really blame contributors for using the word
>that
>sound most natural to them.

>Depending on how big the shop is, solutions would be shop=kiosk (after
>years of pushing we are beginning to see that one adopted) and
>shop=convenience (which is not used enough)

>_______________________________________________
>Tagging mailing list

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Re: shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

Jean-Marc Liotier
On Wed, March 6, 2019 4:33 pm, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> Yes, shop is not becoming shop=kiosk just becomes you are unable to enter
> inside.

Apologies - unsaid assumption was that we were talking about shops
carrying the typical convenience supplies, for which the distinction
between shop=convenience and shop=kiosk is necessary.

> In some funny cases kiosk-type shops (sells drinks, newspapers, magazines,
> snacks, cigarettes and the like) may be big enough that you can enter
> (for example at train stations).


Enock and I have West Africa in mind... Another unsaid assumption in our
exchange. The concept of kiosk in Europe is typically linked to press
distribution as an important part of its activity.

Moral of the story: check for unsaid assumptions and make them explicit...

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Re: shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

Enock Seth Nyamador-2
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3

Shop selling only clothes is still shop=clothes even if it is so small that you are unable
to enter inside.
Shop selling only cars is still shop=car even if it is so small that you are unable
to enter inside.

Of course that's very valid scenarios.

In some funny cases kiosk-type shops (sells drinks, newspapers, magazines, snacks,
cigarettes and the like) may be big enough that you can enter (for example at train
stations).
In this case I will map as shop=convenience instead. 


On 3/6/19 3:33 PM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
Yes, shop is not becoming shop=kiosk just becomes you are unable to enter inside.

Shop selling only clothes is still shop=clothes even if it is so small that you are unable
to enter inside.

Shop selling only cars is still shop=car even if it is so small that you are unable
to enter inside.

In some funny cases kiosk-type shops (sells drinks, newspapers, magazines, snacks,
cigarettes and the like) may be big enough that you can enter (for example at train
stations).


Mar 6, 2019, 4:23 PM by [hidden email]:
kiosk and convenience is supposed to be the same? I always used it like

- convenience: small supermarket that is usually too small to have shopping carts but still also sells things of daily need (shampoo, toilet paper, milk, cornflakes, bread and spread,...). The typical 7-Eleven store (doesn't exist in Germany btw)

- kiosk: very small store that usually only sells drinks, newspapers, magazines, snacks, cigarettes and the like. Sometimes even so small that you can't go inside but buy things through the window

Tobias

Am 6. März 2019 16:06:25 MEZ schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier <[hidden email]>:
>On Wed, March 6, 2019 3:58 pm, Enock Seth Nyamador wrote:
Jean-Marc I agree with about shop=boutique much used in West Africa.
>The
reason being that the shops have boutique attached to their names.
>Indeed. In Dakar and Bamako, when you need to buy a Fanta, tu vas à la
>boutique... So I can't really blame contributors for using the word
>that
>sound most natural to them.

>Depending on how big the shop is, solutions would be shop=kiosk (after
>years of pushing we are beginning to see that one adopted) and
>shop=convenience (which is not used enough)

>_______________________________________________
>Tagging mailing list

_______________________________________________
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-- 
Best,
-Enock

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Re: shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

Tobias Zwick
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
Hmm, basically all kiosk type shops around my area are big enough to be entered - but only sell newspaper, magazines, cigarettes, drinks and snacks.  But *not* any of toilet paper, shampoo, cornflakes, yogurt, bread (so, daily needs) iirc

I think what they sell is a more useful differenciation than whether you can enter or not.

Am 6. März 2019 16:33:19 MEZ schrieb Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]>:

>Yes, shop is not becoming shop=kiosk just becomes you are unable to
>enter inside.
>
>Shop selling only clothes is still shop=clothes even if it is so small
>that you are unable
>to enter inside.
>
>Shop selling only cars is still shop=car even if it is so small that
>you are unable
>to enter inside.
>
>In some funny cases kiosk-type shops (sells drinks, newspapers,
>magazines, snacks,
>cigarettes and the like) may be big enough that you can enter (for
>example at train
>stations).
>
>
>Mar 6, 2019, 4:23 PM by [hidden email]:
>
>> kiosk and convenience is supposed to be the same? I always used it
>like
>>
>> - convenience: small supermarket that is usually too small to have
>shopping carts but still also sells things of daily need (shampoo,
>toilet paper, milk, cornflakes, bread and spread,...). The typical
>7-Eleven store (doesn't exist in Germany btw)
>>
>> - kiosk: very small store that usually only sells drinks, newspapers,
>magazines, snacks, cigarettes and the like. Sometimes even so small
>that you can't go inside but buy things through the window
>>
>> Tobias
>>
>> Am 6. März 2019 16:06:25 MEZ schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier <>
>[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> >:
>> >On Wed, March 6, 2019 3:58 pm, Enock Seth Nyamador wrote:
>>
>>>> Jean-Marc I agree with about shop=boutique much used in West
>Africa.
>>>>
>> >The
>>
>>>> reason being that the shops have boutique attached to their names.
>>>>
>> >Indeed. In Dakar and Bamako, when you need to buy a Fanta, tu vas à
>la
>> >boutique... So I can't really blame contributors for using the word
>> >that
>> >sound most natural to them.
>>
>>>
>>>
>> >Depending on how big the shop is, solutions would be shop=kiosk
>(after
>> >years of pushing we are beginning to see that one adopted) and
>> >shop=convenience (which is not used enough)
>>
>>>
>>>
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Tagging mailing list
>> >> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
><https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
><https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging>
>>

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Re: shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

Markus-5
On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 20:17, Tobias Zwick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hmm, basically all kiosk type shops around my area are big enough to be entered - but only sell newspaper, magazines, cigarettes, drinks and snacks.  But *not* any of toilet paper, shampoo, cornflakes, yogurt, bread (so, daily needs) iirc
>
> I think what they sell is a more useful differenciation than whether you can enter or not.

What you describe is a shop=newsagent [1]. I wasn't aware of this tag
until four days ago when someone mentioned [2] on the Swiss mailing
list that some newsagents (k kiosk brand) are wrongly tagged as
shop=kiosk instead of shop=newsagent. Unfortunately, the word "Kiosk"
is also used for newsagents in German (or at least in Swiss German).

In my opinion, a shop that doesn't sell other food than snacks and
other non-food items than newspapers shouldn't be tagged
shop=convenience.

[1]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dnewsagent
[2]: http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/pipermail/talk-ch/2019-March/009904.html
(in German)

Regards

Markus

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Re: shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

Jean-Marc Liotier
On 3/6/19 8:51 PM, Markus wrote:
> What you describe is a shop=newsagent [1]. I wasn't aware of this tag
> until four days ago when someone mentioned [2] on the Swiss mailing
> list that some newsagents (k kiosk brand) are wrongly tagged as
> shop=kiosk instead of shop=newsagent. Unfortunately, the word "Kiosk"
> is also used for newsagents in German (or at least in Swiss German).

That may be because in the French language a street stall that sells
mostly newspaper with a side of candy is called "un kiosque à journaux"...



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Re: shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Tobias Zwick


sent from a phone

> On 6. Mar 2019, at 16:23, Tobias Zwick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Sometimes even so small that you can't go inside but buy things through the window


I agree with what was said before for kiosks: if you can go inside it is not a Kiosk. The kind of items sold may vary slightly in different cultural context

Cheers, Martin
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Re: shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

Marc Gemis
In reply to this post by Daniel Korn
There is a very long thread on the same subject in August/September 2017.
It started here:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-August/033127.html

The arguments of the emails in this thread regarding
boutique/fashion/clothes stores were given back then as well. So
nothing has changed in the meantime.

m.

On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 3:43 PM dktue <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hello,
>
> I currently found out that shops that sell clothes are either tagged with
>
>      shop=clothes
>
> or with
>
>      shop=fashion
>
> but I can't find out when to use which.
>
> Can anybody clarify?
>
> Cheers,
> Daniel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

Markus-5
I'm in favour of deprecating shop=fashion because of its unclear
meaning, but i prefer to keep shop=boutique for (and only for) small
shops selling high-priced clothes and accessories.

Speaking of accessories: what i'm missing is a tag for shops that sell
various fashion accessories, such as bags, purses, wallets,
sunglasses, hats, umbrellas, watches, jewellery, headbands, scarves,
key rings etc. Shops that come to my mind are Accessorize, SIX or
Claire's. There is shop=accessoires with 422 uses, but this tag is
undocumented and therefore it's unclear if it hasn't also been used
for different accessories shops, such as shops that sell accessories
for mobile phones, cars, motorcycles or computers.
shop=fashion_accessories is unambiguous but has only been used 10
times so far.

Regards

Markus

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Re: discouraging shop=fashion

Mateusz Konieczny-3

Mar 9, 2019, 11:16 PM by [hidden email]:
I'm in favour of deprecating shop=fashion because of its unclear
meaning
Based on discussion(s) it seems that there is no benefit from
keeping this tag.

I would support editors proposing to replace it by shop=clothes + clothes=*
or other if shop=clothes is not fitting


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Re: discouraging shop=fashion

Jean-Marc Liotier
On 3/10/19 9:11 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
Mar 9, 2019, 11:16 PM by [hidden email]:
I'm in favour of deprecating shop=fashion because of its unclear
meaning
Based on discussion(s) it seems that there is no benefit from
keeping this tag.

I would support editors proposing to replace it by shop=clothes + clothes=*

I was about to post to say that - so I support this proposal.


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