shop=marine RFC

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shop=marine RFC

Antoine Beaupré
It seems to me there needs to be some marine shop tags out there,
distinct from "boat selling" places.

At the very least, some clarifications seem needed in the latter tag if
it is deemed sufficient.

See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Marine_shops

Thanks for any comments.

a.
--
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not
prove anything.
                         - Friedrich Nietzshe

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Re: shop=marine RFC

AlaskaDave
shop=marine would be a useful addition IMO. 



My town of Homer, Alaska, is a commercial fishing area and it has several such shops. They sell fishing gear, clothing, navigation devices, fittings for boats (cleats, pullies, etc.), line and chain, boat finishing paints and lacquers, and boat-specific hand tools. I don't think I ever tagged them but I will do that if I haven't already.

Cheers,
Dave

On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 7:10 AM, Antoine Beaupré <[hidden email]> wrote:
It seems to me there needs to be some marine shop tags out there,
distinct from "boat selling" places.

At the very least, some clarifications seem needed in the latter tag if
it is deemed sufficient.

See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Marine_shops

Thanks for any comments.

a.
--
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not
prove anything.
                         - Friedrich Nietzshe

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Re: shop=marine RFC

Malcolm Herring
In reply to this post by Antoine Beaupré
The common name for such shops is "chandler". This is more specific to
the type of shop you want to tag. "marine" is too broad a term


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Re: shop=marine RFC

AlaskaDave
@Tod,

You are probably correct, as far as the OED is concerned. IMO that term is a bit old fashioned. I see most of those ship_chandler shops are in Europe which doesn't surprise me. In the U.S. the term "marine" or "marine supplies" is much more common. Taginfo reports shop=marine occurs 99 times worldwide. By the way, the term chandler is a derivation of candler, a shop that sells candles.

But I don't have a strong opinion on this. More just an observation.

On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 2:20 PM, Malcolm Herring <[hidden email]> wrote:
The common name for such shops is "chandler". This is more specific to the type of shop you want to tag. "marine" is too broad a term



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Re: shop=marine RFC

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Malcolm Herring

2016-03-14 8:20 GMT+01:00 Malcolm Herring <[hidden email]>:
The common name for such shops is "chandler". This is more specific to the type of shop you want to tag. "marine" is too broad a term


+1

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: shop=marine RFC

Richard Z.
In reply to this post by Malcolm Herring
On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 07:20:46AM +0000, Malcolm Herring wrote:
> The common name for such shops is "chandler". This is more specific to the
> type of shop you want to tag. "marine" is too broad a term

this meaning is not even in wiktionary. How many of those shops
would even know they are called chandler?

Richard

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Re: shop=marine RFC

Andy Townsend
On 14/03/2016 11:48, Richard wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 07:20:46AM +0000, Malcolm Herring wrote:
>> The common name for such shops is "chandler". This is more specific to the
>> type of shop you want to tag. "marine" is too broad a term
> this meaning is not even in wiktionary. How many of those shops
> would even know they are called chandler?
>

It is - read https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chandler again.

I wouldn't trust everything you read there though (a chandler is not
primarily "A person who makes or sells candles").  The main English
English use of "chandler" is in the sense of "ship's chandler" - someone
who sells all sorts of stuff that might be useful to someone on a boat.

The wider sense ("someone who sells all sorts of stuff") is used, but
more rarely.  There's an example in
http://halfmanhalfbiscuit.uk/90-bisodol-crimond/descent-of-the-stiperstones/ 
(which exists and is http://www.bunners.co.uk/ ), for example. That's in
OSM as http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/489847395 (and "shop=hardware"
there is correct, I think).

Although it's in the etymology, I've never heard of a modern
candle-maker being described as a chandler.

Cheers,

Andy




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Re: shop=marine RFC

Richard Fairhurst
In reply to this post by Richard Z.
Richard Z. wrote:
> this meaning is not even in wiktionary. How many of those shops
> would even know they are called chandler?

All of them, in my (fairly extensive) experience.

http://reader.waterwaysworld.com/fullsearch.cgi?q=chandlery

Richard
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Re: shop=marine RFC

AlaskaDave
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend
Andy, as I said, the term is a bit old fashioned. I came across that derivation of the English surname Chandler when I was doing genealogy and it stuck with me.


I have no idea what a modern candlemaker might be called LOL



On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 7:19 PM, Andy Townsend <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 14/03/2016 11:48, Richard wrote:
On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 07:20:46AM +0000, Malcolm Herring wrote:
The common name for such shops is "chandler". This is more specific to the
type of shop you want to tag. "marine" is too broad a term
this meaning is not even in wiktionary. How many of those shops
would even know they are called chandler?


It is - read https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chandler again.

I wouldn't trust everything you read there though (a chandler is not primarily "A person who makes or sells candles").  The main English English use of "chandler" is in the sense of "ship's chandler" - someone who sells all sorts of stuff that might be useful to someone on a boat.

The wider sense ("someone who sells all sorts of stuff") is used, but more rarely.  There's an example in http://halfmanhalfbiscuit.uk/90-bisodol-crimond/descent-of-the-stiperstones/ (which exists and is http://www.bunners.co.uk/ ), for example. That's in OSM as http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/489847395 (and "shop=hardware" there is correct, I think).

Although it's in the etymology, I've never heard of a modern candle-maker being described as a chandler.

Cheers,

Andy





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Re: shop=marine RFC

Philip Barnes
On Mon, 2016-03-14 at 19:41 +0700, Dave Swarthout wrote:
Andy, as I said, the term is a bit old fashioned. I came across that derivation of the English surname Chandler when I was doing genealogy and it stuck with me.


I have no idea what a modern candlemaker might be called LOL

Its certainly not old fashioned, it is commonly used for these shops.

Living just about as far away from the coast as its possible to get, its something I have seen on numerous occasions.

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: shop=marine RFC

Antoine Beaupré
In reply to this post by Antoine Beaupré
(Sorry for breaking threads, I only follow the non-MIME digest... :/)

I see that the proposal is generally well received, although the exact
keyword is debated.

I am not sure how to resolve such situations in OSM. It seems like a
classic localisation problem!

For now, I have added the shop=chandler proposal to the wiki page and a
summary of the conversation so far in the comments.

I also found out there is *already* a shop=ship_chandler wiki page,
which I totally overlooked because, like others here, I had no idea what
a chandler meant.

Disclaimer: I am a young sailor in Québec, Canada (so on the west side
of the Atlantic), and my native tongue is french, yet I consider myself
to be bilingual. But I still "learned the ropes" in french... For me,
marine shop is more meaningful than "chandler" or even "ship_chandler",
unfortunately.

We still have two weeks before I proceed with the voting, so keep those
suggestions coming.

In particular, I am wondering if we shouldn't just focus on the more
popular shop=boat tag and avoid the "marine vs chandler" debate
altogether, by adding boat shops specific fields..?

I am not sure what those would be, unfortunately... But it now seems
very clear that a cleanup of those tags is in order, because there's at
least three different ways of mapping those!

Thanks for the feedback!

A.
--
La guerre, c'est le massacre d'hommes qui ne se connaissent pas,
au profit d'hommes qui se connaissent mais ne se massacreront pas.
                        - Paul Valéry

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Re: shop=marine RFC

Richard Z.
On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 10:02:36AM -0400, Antoine Beaupré wrote:

> I also found out there is *already* a shop=ship_chandler wiki page,
> which I totally overlooked because, like others here, I had no idea what
> a chandler meant.

indeed, I have sailed in two oceans and in addition asked someone in
the Pacific and neither of us has seen or heard of a ship chandler.
So the term may be somewhat lesser known outside of UK?

Richard



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Re: shop=marine RFC

Warin
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
On 14/03/2016 11:37 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

> Richard Z. wrote:
>> this meaning is not even in wiktionary. How many of those shops
>> would even know they are called chandler?
> All of them, in my (fairly extensive) experience.
>
> http://reader.waterwaysworld.com/fullsearch.cgi?q=chandlery
>
> Richard
>
>
>

A google for 'ship chandlers' on https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=ships+chandlers

turns up quite a few that themselves use the term 'Chandlery' in their own description.

I think the term is common in the boating and shipping world.


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Re: shop=marine RFC

sabas88

2016-03-14 23:28 GMT+01:00 Warin <[hidden email]>:
On 14/03/2016 11:37 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
Richard Z. wrote:
this meaning is not even in wiktionary. How many of those shops
would even know they are called chandler?
All of them, in my (fairly extensive) experience.

http://reader.waterwaysworld.com/fullsearch.cgi?q=chandlery

Richard




A google for 'ship chandlers' on https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=ships+chandlers

turns up quite a few that themselves use the term 'Chandlery' in their own description.

I think the term is common in the boating and shipping world.



Hi all,
In Genoa (Italy), I have at least two naval supplies shops naming themselves "(ship) chandlers".
 One of them is this one http://www.yachtchandler.it/ (I mapped with the openseamap tagging plus shop=ship_chandler)
The other one was established in 1858, has "ship chandler" on the sign, but I haven't yet mapped it.
Another one I have mapped some years ago as shop=chandler (but no 'chandler' in the name iirc).

Regards,
Stefano

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Re: shop=marine RFC

AlaskaDave
I think we've hit upon yet another instance where the colloquial usage of a term is causing problems. While I have heard of ship_chandlers before, the term is not as popular in many parts of the world as in England or Europe. Most mappers, especially younger ones, will throw up their hands upon seeing shop=chandlery or its variations. I'm in favor of shop=marine because IMO that term is more readily understandable than the other. At least the word marine suggests ocean.

A perhaps similar case exists in the tag shop=chemist. Few people use this term outside of Europe and the U.K. yet it persists and clouds the tagging of what most people would call a pharmacy or even a drugstore. However, we don't have a shop=pharmacy in OSM. For some reason it was put into the amenity category and now amenity=pharmacy has over 157,000 uses while shop=chemist has 16K uses and is certainly a confusing situation. One person suggests on the discussion page of the amenity=pharmacy that stores such as CVS and Boots should be tagged with both shop=chemist and amenity=pharmacy depending on whether it dispenses prescription drugs. And I can practically guarantee that if you walk into your local CVS and ask them if they work in a chemist shop you'll get a blank stare in return.

In addition, in the Wiki entry for shop=chemist there is this paragraph:

"Historically, pharmacies were also known as chemists in the UK and Commonwealth. In the past one could buy many common chemicals from such shops, and the pharmacists could compound other chemicals and drugs themselves. For most of the 20th century this meant that these shops were also a common place to buy photographic products and services (film, film processing, processing chemicals, etc.), but this role ceased for several reasons: increased complexity of drugs; mail-order photo processing; restrictions on sale of many chemicals). This is tag name is therefore a legacy of that phase in time."

To my mind ship_chandler is just that, a legacy term, an historic holdover from an earlier time. 

Dave




On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 5:49 AM, Stefano <[hidden email]> wrote:

2016-03-14 23:28 GMT+01:00 Warin <[hidden email]>:
On 14/03/2016 11:37 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
Richard Z. wrote:
this meaning is not even in wiktionary. How many of those shops
would even know they are called chandler?
All of them, in my (fairly extensive) experience.

http://reader.waterwaysworld.com/fullsearch.cgi?q=chandlery

Richard




A google for 'ship chandlers' on https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=ships+chandlers

turns up quite a few that themselves use the term 'Chandlery' in their own description.

I think the term is common in the boating and shipping world.



Hi all,
In Genoa (Italy), I have at least two naval supplies shops naming themselves "(ship) chandlers".
 One of them is this one http://www.yachtchandler.it/ (I mapped with the openseamap tagging plus shop=ship_chandler)
The other one was established in 1858, has "ship chandler" on the sign, but I haven't yet mapped it.
Another one I have mapped some years ago as shop=chandler (but no 'chandler' in the name iirc).

Regards,
Stefano

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Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com

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Re: shop=marine RFC

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Richard Z.
maybe chandler is a not so frequent term outside the UK (although I have found some relevant shops in Germany by searching for chandler and the name of a city), but I do believe that "marine" is too generic to be a good tag. Searching for marine shop I mostly found stuff related to the US marine corps.
Maybe shop=sailing_supplies? Or ship_supplies? Or is the focus of this tag on marine related clothing?

cheers,
Martin
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Re: shop=marine RFC

Richard Fairhurst
dieterdreist wrote:
> Maybe shop=sailing_supplies? Or ship_supplies?

Some of us have boats (not ships) with engines (not sails). :)

cheers
Richard
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Re: shop=marine RFC

Malcolm Herring
On 15/03/2016 09:31, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Some of us have boats (not ships) with engines (not sails).:)

+1!

Maybe "shop=boating_supplies"?


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Re: shop=marine RFC

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by AlaskaDave


sent from a phone

> Am 15.03.2016 um 00:45 schrieb Dave Swarthout <[hidden email]>:
>
> A perhaps similar case exists in the tag shop=chemist. Few people use this term outside of Europe and the U.K. yet it persists and clouds the tagging of what most people would call a pharmacy or even a drugstore.


note that pharmacies in many parts of the world, at least in all of Europe, are quite different from chemists/drugstores, as they sell mainly medicine and in Europe typically have the legally guaranteed monopoly to sell pharmaceuticals.

Chemists/drugstores nowadays mainly sell stuff for cleaning (the house, yourself and kids, toilet paper ...), often also some organic food (drinks, snacks, no grocery or meat), diapers, batteries, some makeup,candles, some stationery...
but there are very few of the old kind left (that also sold stuff like chemicals and others not pre-confectioned but by weight).

cheers,
Martin
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Re: shop=marine RFC

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by AlaskaDave


sent from a phone

Am 15.03.2016 um 00:45 schrieb Dave Swarthout <[hidden email]>:

"Historically, pharmacies were also known as chemists in the UK and Commonwealth. In the past one could buy many common chemicals from such shops, and the pharmacists could compound other chemicals and drugs themselves.


FWIW, any pharmacy I know of (this is about Germany and Italy) has a laboratory and still does occasionally compound drugs (e.g. ointments), although it has become rare that they actually have to.

cheers,
Martin 

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