shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies

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shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies

Mateusz Konieczny-3
What is the difference between these shops?

My expectation is that

- shop=plumber is poorly tagged office of a plumber
- shop=plumbing is unclear tagging of shop with primarily plumbing supplies
- shop=plumbing_supplies is a good name for plumbing supplies shop but rarely used

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Re: shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies

Tagging mailing list
On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 01:57:35PM +0100, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> What is the difference between these shops?
>
> My expectation is that
>
> - shop=plumber is poorly tagged office of a plumber
> - shop=plumbing is unclear tagging of shop with primarily plumbing supplies
> - shop=plumbing_supplies is a good name for plumbing supplies shop but rarely used

Or shop=trade and trade=plumbing_supplies if it is largely aimed at
trades people/professionals.

ael


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Re: shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies

Marc Gemis
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
I wonder whether you will ever get the right answers to this type of
questions on this mailing list.
Only if people on this list have used those tags themselves or
interacted with people using the "wrong" tags you might get an idea of
what is going on.
Otherwise, it seems to me that we just might guess the correct answer.

The only people that know what they meant with a certain tag (that is
not documented) are those that used it. But finding the people that
used to tag and contact them is a daunting task.

regards

m

On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 1:59 PM Mateusz Konieczny
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> What is the difference between these shops?
>
> My expectation is that
>
> - shop=plumber is poorly tagged office of a plumber
> - shop=plumbing is unclear tagging of shop with primarily plumbing supplies
> - shop=plumbing_supplies is a good name for plumbing supplies shop but rarely used
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies

Mateusz Konieczny-3



Mar 25, 2019, 4:30 PM by [hidden email]:
I wonder whether you will ever get the right answers to this type of
questions on this mailing list.
Only if people on this list have used those tags themselves or
interacted with people using the "wrong" tags you might get an idea of
what is going on.
Otherwise, it seems to me that we just might guess the correct answer.

The only people that know what they meant with a certain tag (that is
not documented) are those that used it. But finding the people that
used to tag and contact them is a daunting task.
And they may not wish to be contacted. I treat mailing list as self delected
group of mappers that is OK with answering questions asked by
strangers.

Also, note that if use of tag is interpreted in a common way by OSM community
then it does not really matter what was intended.

In addition nearly always when I ask "what is the meaning of XYZ" I
have some guess/expectation what is the meaning of it (usually I
mention it) so if there is no response that I am wrong or mistaken
I assume that I was right - in such cases question is basically
a sanity check.

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Re: shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3


sent from a phone

> Am 25.03.2019 um 13:57 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]>:
>
> My expectation is that
>
> - shop=plumber is poorly tagged office of a plumber
> - shop=plumbing is unclear tagging of shop with primarily plumbing supplies
> - shop=plumbing_supplies is a good name for plumbing supplies shop but rarely used


there is also craft (combination or not) for places where you find specialized workers. In my area it is typical for this kind of shop to also offer delivery and installation service if required.

Cheers, Martin
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Re: shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies

Graeme Fitzpatrick


On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 at 10:29, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


> Am 25.03.2019 um 13:57 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]>:
>
> > - shop=plumber is poorly tagged office of a plumber
> - shop=plumbing is unclear tagging of shop with primarily plumbing supplies
> - shop=plumbing_supplies is a good name for plumbing supplies shop but rarely used


there is also craft (combination or not) for places where you find specialized workers. 

I've never been very happy with a lot of the craft= tags.

To me "craft" suggests small-scale, probably handmade, so things like =basket_maker; beekeeper; blacksmith; cooper; embroiderer & so on all fit as they're (usually) small, often one person operations.

But =boatbuilder; builder; electrician; glaziery; hvac; mint; roofer; sawmill etc are usually not small scale works.

Should we possibly have a trade= key to cover the office / workshop / shed / factory unit where these specialists are located, or from where they work out of?

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies

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On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 04:57:12PM +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

> > there is also craft (combination or not) for places where you find
> > specialized workers.
> >
>
> I've never been very happy with a lot of the craft= tags.
>
> To me "craft" suggests small-scale, probably handmade, so things like
> =basket_maker; beekeeper; blacksmith; cooper; embroiderer & so on all fit
> as they're (usually) small, often one person operations.
>
> But =boatbuilder; builder; electrician; glaziery; hvac; mint; roofer;
> sawmill etc are usually not small scale works.

+1

>
> Should we possibly have a trade= key to cover the office / workshop / shed
> / factory unit where these specialists are located, or from where they work
> out of?

As long as it is clearly distinguished from the exiting use of trade.
I fear confusion if it uses exactly the same tag. But maybe it could
work.

ael


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Re: shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies

Lionel Giard
Keep in mind that there is already the tags "man_made=works" + "products=*" for industrial scale production. Like the example of a brewery that can be tagged as craft=brewery (when small) or via man_made=works + product=beer (when industrial). 

To my understanding, at trade shop can't really be compared to a "craft" guy, as the trade shop only sell bulk material (there is no production there). :-) 

Le mar. 26 mars 2019 à 12:00, ael via Tagging <[hidden email]> a écrit :
On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 04:57:12PM +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> > there is also craft (combination or not) for places where you find
> > specialized workers.
> >
>
> I've never been very happy with a lot of the craft= tags.
>
> To me "craft" suggests small-scale, probably handmade, so things like
> =basket_maker; beekeeper; blacksmith; cooper; embroiderer & so on all fit
> as they're (usually) small, often one person operations.
>
> But =boatbuilder; builder; electrician; glaziery; hvac; mint; roofer;
> sawmill etc are usually not small scale works.

+1

>
> Should we possibly have a trade= key to cover the office / workshop / shed
> / factory unit where these specialists are located, or from where they work
> out of?

As long as it is clearly distinguished from the exiting use of trade.
I fear confusion if it uses exactly the same tag. But maybe it could
work.

ael


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Re: shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies

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On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 02:44:35PM +0100, Lionel Giard wrote:
>
> To my understanding, at trade shop can't really be compared to a "craft"
> guy, as the trade shop only sell bulk material (there is no production
> there). :-)

That is indeed part of the meaning for trade=?? when used in conjunction
with (as a sub-tag of) shop=trade. But I think that the idea was to
re-use trade in other contexts. I am a little uncertain whether that
would be unambiguous.

ael


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Re: shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies

Kevin Kenny-3
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 2:58 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> To me "craft" suggests small-scale, probably handmade, so things like =basket_maker; beekeeper; blacksmith; cooper; embroiderer & so on all fit as they're (usually) small, often one person operations.

Around my workplace, the bargaining units use 'craft' and 'trade'
pretty much interchangeably. A plumber, electrician, millwright,
draughtsman, machinist, ... might be referred to as either a
'craftsman' or 'tradesman'.

I know that 'craft' sometimes carries the small-scale, bespoke-work
connotation, as in 'hand-crafted' but I'm not too uncomfortable with
describing carpentry (even framing work), masonry or steamfitting as
'crafts'.

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Re: shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by Lionel Giard

Thanks everyone!
 
On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 at 21:00, ael via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

I fear confusion if it uses exactly the same tag. But maybe it could work.

Open for any thoughts or suggestions of a better word!

What do you call the place that a tradesman (sorry, ladies!) works out of? The "place" that he stores his equipment, is his registered trading address, where his business mail is delivered, that (probably) isn't open to the general public to come & visit - it could even be his home, if he has a sign out the front to say "Fred Smith, Electrical Contractor"

 Maybe tradesman tradesperson=boatbuilder; builder; electrician?

On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 at 23:46, Lionel Giard <[hidden email]> wrote:
Keep in mind that there is already the tags "man_made=works" + "products=*" for industrial scale production. Like the example of a brewery that can be tagged as craft=brewery (when small) or via man_made=works + product=beer (when industrial). 

That's another one I was thinking of & the same applies to =distillery
 
To my understanding, at trade shop can't really be compared to a "craft" guy, as the trade shop only sell bulk material (there is no production there). :-) 

No, I agree it can't. 

Maybe we could specify that shop=trade + trade= must include "supply / supplies" eg shop=trade + trade=plumbing_supplies, for the wholesaler that carries all the different sizes of pipe, taps & other fittings? ATM, there's a mixture eg =building_supplies but also =plumbing:

That would leave trade=plumber for the shed that they work out of.

On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 at 01:13, Kevin Kenny <[hidden email]> wrote:

Around my workplace, the bargaining units use 'craft' and 'trade'
pretty much interchangeably. A plumber, electrician, millwright,
draughtsman, machinist, ... might be referred to as either a
'craftsman' or 'tradesman'.

I know that 'craft' sometimes carries the small-scale, bespoke-work
connotation, as in 'hand-crafted' but I'm not too uncomfortable with
describing carpentry (even framing work), masonry or steamfitting as
'crafts'.

I understand what you're saying, Kevin, & to a certain extent agree with you, although I think there are still fine lines - a carpenter is definitely a tradie, a cabinet maker could be a tradie if they just assemble flat-packs, but a craftsman if they do fine, precision work, while a woodturner is a craftsman.

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies

Joseph Eisenberg
I agree that the "craft" key should be used for places where craft
work is done. It seems that
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Acraft%3Dplumber
craft=plumber is already fairly well established with 4000 uses, and
the page has been around since 2011. While "craft" seems imprecise for
offices of tradespersons who do not make things at that location, it
would be more confusing to reuse the key "trade". I'd thought that
"office=" might work as a key, but "office=plumber" is only used 5
times.

The page for "craft" shows that a number of different trades are
included: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:craft - eg craft =
builder, carpet_layer, chimney_sweeper, electrician, hvac, insulation,
etc..

On 3/27/19, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks everyone!
>
> On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 at 21:00, ael via Tagging <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I fear confusion if it uses exactly the same tag. But maybe it could
>> work.
>
>
> Open for any thoughts or suggestions of a better word!
>
> What do you call the place that a tradesman (sorry, ladies!) works out of?
> The "place" that he stores his equipment, is his registered trading
> address, where his business mail is delivered, that (probably) isn't open
> to the general public to come & visit - it could even be his home, *if* he
> has a sign out the front to say "Fred Smith, Electrical Contractor"
>
>  Maybe tradesman tradesperson=boatbuilder; builder; electrician?
>
> On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 at 23:46, Lionel Giard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Keep in mind that there is already the tags "man_made=works" +
>> "products=*" for industrial scale production. Like the example of a
>> brewery
>> that can be tagged as craft=brewery (when small) or via man_made=works +
>> product=beer (when industrial).
>>
>
> That's another one I was thinking of & the same applies to =distillery
>
>
>> To my understanding, at trade shop can't really be compared to a "craft"
>> guy, as the trade shop only sell bulk material (there is no production
>> there). :-)
>>
>
> No, I agree it can't.
>
> Maybe we could specify that shop=trade + trade= must include "supply /
> supplies" eg shop=trade + trade=plumbing_supplies, for the wholesaler that
> carries all the different sizes of pipe, taps & other fittings? ATM,
> there's a mixture eg =building_supplies but also =plumbing:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dtrade
>
> That would leave trade=plumber for the shed that they work out of.
>
> On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 at 01:13, Kevin Kenny <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Around my workplace, the bargaining units use 'craft' and 'trade'
>> pretty much interchangeably. A plumber, electrician, millwright,
>> draughtsman, machinist, ... might be referred to as either a
>> 'craftsman' or 'tradesman'.
>>
>> I know that 'craft' sometimes carries the small-scale, bespoke-work
>> connotation, as in 'hand-crafted' but I'm not too uncomfortable with
>> describing carpentry (even framing work), masonry or steamfitting as
>> 'crafts'.
>
>
> I understand what you're saying, Kevin, & to a certain extent agree with
> you, although I think there are still fine lines - a carpenter is
> definitely a tradie, a cabinet maker could be a tradie if they just
> assemble flat-packs, but a craftsman if they do fine, precision work, while
> a woodturner is a craftsman.
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>

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Re: shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 09:18:52AM +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> wrote:
> >
> > I fear confusion if it uses exactly the same tag. But maybe it could work.
> Open for any thoughts or suggestions of a better word!

The only term that crossed my mind was specialisation but that
doesn't really fit. I invented the shop=trade after a suggestion on this
list to consider subtags. Hence my concern that the re-use of trade
might be confusing. But something like
 business=trade, trade=plumbing
might work. As long as data consumers have no problems parsing that.

But perhaps business=plumbing could work and would be simpler?
I have always thought it odd that "business" was not used much as a tag.
Many of the uses of "office" seem to me to really mean "business".

That could even be
  business=trade   trade=plumbing
if people think that business alone is to all encompassing. But it is
probably best to keep it simple.

ael


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Re: shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies

Graeme Fitzpatrick


On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 at 21:32, ael via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

The only term that crossed my mind was specialisation but that
doesn't really fit.

Good thought, but I'd agree no, not quite right.
 
I invented the shop=trade after a suggestion on this list to consider subtags.

I was thinking about it & wondered about changing shop=trade to shop=trade_supply (which may be a more accurate description anyway?)

The sub-tag could then also become trade_supply= or stay as trade=
 
Hence my concern that the re-use of trade might be confusing.

I'm wondering if it would be?

We'd have shop=trade_supply + trade=electrical for the wholesale outlet, with trade=electrician on the factory unit / shed / yard / house that they work from. Do they even have to be different words? Could both places be the same eg trade=electrical for the actual tradie or trade=electrician for the wholesaler?

But perhaps business=plumbing could work and would be simpler?
I have always thought it odd that "business" was not used much as a tag.
Many of the uses of "office" seem to me to really mean "business".

That's not a bad thought either!
 
That could even be
  business=trade   trade=plumbing
if people think that business alone is to all encompassing. But it is
probably best to keep it simple.

Could be done either way.

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies

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On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 08:19:16AM +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 at 21:32, ael via Tagging <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > I invented the shop=trade after a suggestion on this list to consider
> > subtags.
>
>
> I was thinking about it & wondered about changing shop=trade to
> shop=trade_supply (which may be a more accurate description anyway?)

Not keen on that, and it would change existing usage.

> I'm wondering if it would be?
>
> We'd have shop=trade_supply + trade=electrical for the wholesale outlet,

shop=trade
  was not intended just for wholesale. There are many retailers who also
  have special services for various trades. The tag was explicitly meant
  to include those sorts of places.

> But perhaps business=plumbing could work and would be simpler?
> > I have always thought it odd that "business" was not used much as a tag.
> > Many of the uses of "office" seem to me to really mean "business".
> >
>
> That's not a bad thought either!
>
>
> > That could even be
> >   business=trade   trade=plumbing
> > if people think that business alone is to all encompassing. But it is
> > probably best to keep it simple.
> >
>
> Could be done either way.

My preference on reflection. I don't think the multiple use of the trade tag
should cause any problems, especially since the semantics is very
similar. But I haven't given it much thought, so I could be wrong.

ael

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