shop=window(s) incorrectly deprecated in favor of craft=window_construction ?

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shop=window(s) incorrectly deprecated in favor of craft=window_construction ?

marc marc
Hello,

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dwindow
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dwindows
"deprecated. The recommended replacement is: tag:craft=window_construction"

but howto tag a shop that sell windows build/made elsewhere ?
iho craft is only for the place where something is build
and therefore a shop=* is needed
values that currently exit : window(s) glaziery windows_construction

Regards,
Marc
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Re: shop=window(s) incorrectly deprecated in favor of craft=window_construction ?

Andy Townsend
On 09/07/2019 14:47, marc marc wrote:

> Hello,
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dwindow
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dwindows
> "deprecated. The recommended replacement is: tag:craft=window_construction"
>
> but howto tag a shop that sell windows build/made elsewhere ?
> iho craft is only for the place where something is build
> and therefore a shop=* is needed
> values that currently exit : window(s) glaziery windows_construction

The relevant wiki change was
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Ashop%3Dwindows&type=revision&diff=1257210&oldid=1000370 
.  I'd start by asking the author of that change what discussion led
them to think that the tag was discouraged / deprecated?

There might be some - or there might not.

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: shop=window(s) incorrectly deprecated in favor of craft=window_construction ?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by marc marc


sent from a phone

> On 9. Jul 2019, at 15:47, marc marc <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> but howto tag a shop that sell windows build/made elsewhere ?


like in only selling, not fitting/mounting them? Not offering to replace the glass, etc.? Can you go there to buy a window, and take it away, or will you order a window or maybe the whole facade which will then be produced and delivered to you?

While a shop like this may exist, I must admit I have never seen it. Can you refer to a real example?


Cheers, Martin
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Re: shop=window(s) incorrectly deprecated in favor of craft=window_construction ?

Tagging mailing list
On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 04:03:35PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> like in only selling, not fitting/mounting them? Not offering to replace the glass, etc.? Can you go there to buy a window, and take it away, or will you order a window or maybe the whole facade which will then be produced and delivered to you?
>
> While a shop like this may exist, I must admit I have never seen it. Can you refer to a real example?

Several in my area in UK.

ael


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Re: shop=window(s) incorrectly deprecated in favor of craft=window_construction ?

Tobias Zwick
I always thought that there is no norm for standard sizes of windows, so every window is made to measure. (And in case of a larger construction project, then 1000s of windows are made with the same measure)
Is this not true after all?

Tobias

On July 9, 2019 4:54:59 PM GMT+02:00, ael via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

>On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 04:03:35PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>
>> like in only selling, not fitting/mounting them? Not offering to
>replace the glass, etc.? Can you go there to buy a window, and take it
>away, or will you order a window or maybe the whole facade which will
>then be produced and delivered to you?
>>
>> While a shop like this may exist, I must admit I have never seen it.
>Can you refer to a real example?
>
>Several in my area in UK.
>
>ael
>
>
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Re: shop=window(s) incorrectly deprecated in favor of craft=window_construction ?

Paul Allen
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 16:44, Tobias Zwick <[hidden email]> wrote:
I always thought that there is no norm for standard sizes of windows, so every window is made to measure. (And in case of a larger construction project, then 1000s of windows are made with the same measure)
Is this not true after all?

A housing estate may standardize on a particular size, but on a wider scale there is no
standard (that I know of).

However, it is increasingly common that windows are built in a factory somewhere in the
middle of nowhere and orders for those windows are taken in shops in urban centres.  There
are still places in towns that cut glass, fashion frames and assemble windows, but often it's
just a place that takes orders which they send off to the factory.

--
Paul


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Re: shop=window(s) incorrectly deprecated in favor of craft=window_construction ?

Kevin Kenny-3
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 12:04 PM Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 16:44, Tobias Zwick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I always thought that there is no norm for standard sizes of windows, so every window is made to measure. (And in case of a larger construction project, then 1000s of windows are made with the same measure)
>> Is this not true after all?
>
>
> A housing estate may standardize on a particular size, but on a wider scale there is no
> standard (that I know of).
>
> However, it is increasingly common that windows are built in a factory somewhere in the
> middle of nowhere and orders for those windows are taken in shops in urban centres.  There
> are still places in towns that cut glass, fashion frames and assemble windows, but often it's
> just a place that takes orders which they send off to the factory.

In the US, most double-hung windows installed in the last few decades
are factory-built. Most installers do not make to measure, but order
factory-made windows to match the size. In my area, there are about
seven or eight popular sizes in stock, and be able to special-order
prefabricated windows to fit other sizes. Bespoke joinery for windows
is nearly a thing of the past around here - windows are ordered from a
company like Andersen or Pella.

There's a much faster lead time if a builder confines himself to a
reasonably small set of sizes. For instance, one dealer near me can
supply double hung windows for immediate delivery, but only in
standard widths of 24, 28, 32, and 36 inches for the rough opening,
and standard heights 38, 46, 48, 54 and 62 inches. (It's not all
combinations, either, for instance the ones with a 48-inch height are
stocked only in 32 and 36 inch widths.)

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Re: shop=window(s) incorrectly deprecated in favor of craft=window_construction ?

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by Tobias Zwick
On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 05:42:56PM +0200, Tobias Zwick wrote:
> I always thought that there is no norm for standard sizes of windows, so every window is made to measure.

That's what several local companies do in my area of the UK. They cater
mainly for the trade, but also for DIY. Pretty well every replacement
window has to be made to measure. At least some of the companies cut and
weld the frames on site. They buy in the premade sections I think.

I believe it is common: there are similar companies in another area of the
UK that I know well.

The obvious tag is
 shop=trade
and
 trade= ???  -- well, in my area I would probably use trade=double_glazing
but something more general might be better since these places also
supply UPV doors and the like, at least.

ael

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Re: shop=window(s) incorrectly deprecated in favor of craft=window_construction ?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Tobias Zwick


sent from a phone

> On 9. Jul 2019, at 17:42, Tobias Zwick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I always thought that there is no norm for standard sizes of windows


there are standard sizes. In Germany the base grid measure for masonry is 12,5cm (based on one standard brick 24x11.5x7.1cm (Normalformat)), openings are +1cm. These are raw measures.

It doesn’t mean you cannot get any dimensions of course, especially because many buildings are not made from masonry.


Cheers, Martin


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Re: shop=window(s) incorrectly deprecated in favor of craft=window_construction ?

Warin
On 10/07/19 06:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 9. Jul 2019, at 17:42, Tobias Zwick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I always thought that there is no norm for standard sizes of windows
>
> there are standard sizes. In Germany the base grid measure for masonry is 12,5cm (based on one standard brick 24x11.5x7.1cm (Normalformat)), openings are +1cm. These are raw measures.

Just as doors come in standard sizes, so too do windows.

You can read the reasons why things come in standard sizes here
http://www.ausdesign.com.au/articles/article27.html

Of course you can get non standard sized windows and doors.. but they
cost more.


For firms supplying standard windows and there sizes see;

https://www.sdmdoors.co.uk/what-are-standard-upvc-window-sizes/
http://www.dowell.com.au/products/windows.html
https://www.stegbar.com.au/-/media/Files/Stegbar/Stegbar-Brochure-Downloads/Stegbar-Windows--Doors-Standard-Sizes-Brochure.pdf?as=1&hash=333F8B610BB36D4C35EF16F583E3D99A0F6E0BBB

and many more...



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Re: shop=window(s) incorrectly deprecated in favor of craft=window_construction ?

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 10. Jul 2019, at 01:17, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Just as doors come in standard sizes, so too do windows.
>
> You can read the reasons why things come in standard sizes here http://www.ausdesign.com.au/articles/article27.html



the typical size of windows may vary according to the region, tradition and of course building structure. As I had hinted above, masonry construction leads to a grid of measures based on the individual brick size and joint width, because you would try to avoid cutting bricks. While you’re completely free in theory if constructing with concrete, there are standard sizes for formwork, and measurements tend to follow those based on masonry. With wood the distance of the structural beams will influence the window width, ceiling heights and building standards (safety, prevent people from falling out) as well as room depths generally determine the bottom and top quotes of windows. Of course there is also a lot of design consideration playing into the decision how to distribute the window area on the facade.


>
> Of course you can get non standard sized windows and doors.. but they cost more.


only for some kind and if you order few, for bigger constructions it does not matter much.

Cheers, Martin
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Re: shop=window(s) incorrectly deprecated in favor of craft=window_construction ?

Michael Patrick
In reply to this post by marc marc
> The obvious tag is
>  shop=trade
>  and
>  trade= ???  ...

The most obvious tagging scheme for a world wide database like OSM would be to use the commercial classification system in effect in a particular jurisdiction.

In the U.S. that's NAICS, the U.K. has one, the EU and practically every country in the world has one or uses on of the broader ones. The U.N. has a very generic one. And there are published crosswalk tables and utilities between the different systems.

They are all hierarchical, i.e. they have very very broad simple generic categories at the top ( 20 for NAICS ) but also allow one to drill down to the very, very specific - and the common search engines will provide the detailed label with a simple query like Googling "NAICS Code NAICS code bubble tea stand" gives "NAICS Code 722515 - Snack and Nonalcoholic Beverage Bars",  '... establishments primarily engaged in (1) preparing and/or serving a specialty snack, such as ice cream, frozen yogurt, cookies, or popcorn, or (2) serving nonalcoholic beverages, such as coffee, juices, or sodas for consumption on or near the premises. These establishments may carry and sell a combination of snack, nonalcoholic beverage, and other related products (e.g., coffee beans, mugs, coffee makers) but generally promote and sell a unique snack or nonalcoholic beverage." with examples.

They also provide links to alternative and related, more general, and more specific categories. Even if someone goofs a designation, the goof will usually still be very close to the actual one.

Also, to some degree, usually the code(s) for a particular business is public record at the municipal, county, state/province, and national level, it's on their posted business license, it appears on a roll or listing somewhere. If the business is ad hoc or unlicensed, it's trivial to get the classification by looking up the code for a similar licensed business.

It accommodates the very common situation where an establishment provides multiple levels, like manufactures cabinets from raw materials, ships them and distributes them wholesale regionally, and retails them over the counter to individuals from their showroom.

The benefits to data providers and consumers are fairly obvious.

Michael Patrick
Data Ferret


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Re: shop=window(s) incorrectly deprecated in favor of craft=window_construction ?

Tagging mailing list
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:33:15PM -0700, Michael Patrick wrote:
> > The obvious tag is
> >  shop=trade
> >  and
> >  trade= ???  ...
>
> The most obvious tagging scheme for a world wide database like OSM would be
> to use the commercial classification system in effect in a particular
> jurisdiction.

I had not come across this sort of classification before. I see that
there are "SIC" codes in the UK.

They don't seem to cater for shops selling to both the trade and
ordinary customers, but maybe I have not looked carefully.

I would think that these sort of specialist tags might be useful in addition to
more user-friendly tags like those at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dtrade .

Perhaps something along the lines of the fhrs:id tag used in the UK for
food hygience:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/UK_Food_Hygiene_Rating_Scheme?

Maybe naics:id = in USA, sic:id in UK, and so on?

So they could be useful in addition to the trade=whatever when
appropriate.

ael


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Re: shop=window(s) incorrectly deprecated in favor of craft=window_construction ?

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Michael Patrick



11 Jul 2019, 21:33 by [hidden email]:
> The obvious tag is
>  shop=trade
>  and
>  trade= ???  ...

The most obvious tagging scheme for a world wide database like OSM would be to use the commercial classification system in effect in a particular jurisdiction.
It is neither not obvious nor likely to be very useful.

Existing classification may be useful during developing new tags,
but separate tagging scheme for each jurisdiction
for a global project is a poor idea.

And in case of using common part/
conversion tables - how it differs from the current state?

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