tag templates in the wiki

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
23 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

tag templates in the wiki

dieterdreist
Is it now unavoidable that the info box content on tag definition pages in the wiki comes from the database? Is there consensus that the higher complexity to edit it is less important than the features we gain from it?


I find it unfortunate that the edits to the tag db don’t show up in the page history for the tag definition page, so changes to these are much harder to spot and history becomes much more complex because you have to look at several sources (first of all you would have to be aware that there is a database from where this comes, then you must find it and get the history from there). 

I believe this is incapacitating the wider community and creating a context where it becomes almost impossible for an ordinary mapper to make even a small modification to these parts in the wiki.

Cheers Martin 

sent from a phone




_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tag templates in the wiki

Mateusz Konieczny-3



12 Aug 2019, 01:05 by [hidden email]:
Is it now unavoidable that the info box content on tag definition pages in the wiki comes from the database?
It is avoidable, just specify values in the template.

I just reverted edit that for some unexplained reason damaged wiki page.

See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:man_made%3Dbridge&curid=104321&action=history


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tag templates in the wiki

Warin
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On 12/08/19 09:05, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> I believe this is incapacitating the wider community and creating a
> context where it becomes almost impossible for an ordinary mapper to
> make even a small modification to these parts in the wiki.
>

I don't think making a change is a problem. The problem is tracking the
history so you can see the evolution.

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tag templates in the wiki

Joseph Eisenberg
I've found it quite confusing. Fortunately, user Yurik, who seems to
be leading the efforts to create the data items (wikibase), has been
quick about answering my questions when I didn't understand the
system.

But initially I couldn't figure out how to add description in another
language (turns out you have to change the language of the wiki
interface), and it can be quite confusing when a tag status or "see
also" appears, yet there is nothing in the page source.

In the long term it might be ok if the current system is entirely
replaced, but the current situation is confusing. And I'm not yet
convinced that editing the data items will be easier, in English or
for translated and localized wiki pages.

On 8/12/19, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 12/08/19 09:05, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>
>> I believe this is incapacitating the wider community and creating a
>> context where it becomes almost impossible for an ordinary mapper to
>> make even a small modification to these parts in the wiki.
>>
>
> I don't think making a change is a problem. The problem is tracking the
> history so you can see the evolution.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tag templates in the wiki

Andy Townsend
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On 12/08/2019 00:05, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> Is it now unavoidable that the info box content on tag definition
> pages in the wiki comes from the database? Is there consensus that the
> higher complexity to edit it is less important than the features we
> gain from it
>
>
I don't think it's unavoidable - presumably you can just ignore the
wikidata stuff and carry on as before?

For example, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:verge is an in-use
tag that has not wikidata entry, does not need one and that page is
useful despite that.

I'm concerned that some wikidata entries are just plain wrong -
especially in places where OSM's use of a word doesn't match the normal
English (any English - English, American, Hiberno-, etc.) usage of that
word.  Examples include
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3Dcity (though there
wikidata's English description at https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q515 
"large and permanent human settlement by size of its inhabitants" adds
extra comedy), https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dwood 
and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dforest which both
link to https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4421 .  In each of these cases
all nuance of the usage of the OSM tag is lost.

Best Regards,

Andy



_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tag templates in the wiki

Paul Allen
On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 17:05, Andy Townsend <[hidden email]> wrote:
useful despite that.

I'm concerned that some wikidata entries are just plain wrong -
especially in places where OSM's use of a word doesn't match the normal
English (any English - English, American, Hiberno-, etc.) usage of that
word.  Examples include
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3Dcity

That means https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Davids  loses it's city status as far as OSM
is concerned.  But it lost city status towards the end of the 19th Century, only to have it
restored in 1994.  Easy come, Easy go.
 
(though there wikidata's English description at https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q515
"large and permanent human settlement by size of its inhabitants" adds
extra comedy),

There were Nephilim in the cities after OSM's Wikipedia/Wikidata reorganization (the
words in Genesis 6:4 are a mistranslation).

 --
Paul


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tag templates in the wiki

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend


sent from a phone

> On 12. Aug 2019, at 18:02, Andy Townsend <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I don't think it's unavoidable - presumably you can just ignore the wikidata stuff and carry on as before?


I had thought so as well, but then I saw the edit which removed the whole template information from the page and it continued to show the information, so it was clear there was another system, which isn’t currently logged in the page history, and is another layer of complexity which makes it harder to add this or to note when someone changes it.

Cheers Martin
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tag templates in the wiki

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend


sent from a phone

> On 12. Aug 2019, at 18:02, Andy Townsend <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I'm concerned that some wikidata entries are just plain wrong -


AFAIK the template is not filled from wikidata.org but rather from a wikidata installation on OpenStreetMap-Foundation servers (or for OpenStreetMap but on another server), with information harvested in the osm wiki. It is a parallel system to wikidata.org by wikimedia.(?)


Cheers Martin
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tag templates in the wiki

Tordanik
On 12.08.19 20:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> AFAIK the template is not filled from wikidata.org but rather from a wikidata installation on OpenStreetMap-Foundation servers (or for OpenStreetMap but on another server), with information harvested in the osm wiki. It is a parallel system to wikidata.org by wikimedia.(?)

Yes. The OSM "data items" use the same software as Wikidata, but it's an
entirely separate installation on wiki.openstreetmap.org. Technically,
it's just an add-on (extension) for the wiki software.

There *is* a Wikidata link on some key and tag pages, but that is simply
an outgoing external link which doesn't do anything magical and is
unrelated to the above.

Tobias

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tag templates in the wiki

Joseph Eisenberg
I’ve been calling the system “wikibase”, but don’t know if this is clearer. 

I’d avoid saying “OSM data items” because this sounds very similar to “OSM database objects”.’

We could say “(OSM) wiki data items”? 

Or “Openstreetmap.org wikibase data items”?

But what do we call the whole data system: “the OSM wiki wikibase?” 
wiki.openstreetmap.org wikibase?”
openstreetmap.org wiki data item system?”

Ugh. I can’t think of a 100% clear and unambiguous term to use for data items or the whole system. 

It’s hard to avoid confusion with the OSM database (nodes/ways) vs the wiki data.

Joseph

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 4:18 AM Tobias Knerr <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 12.08.19 20:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> AFAIK the template is not filled from wikidata.org but rather from a wikidata installation on OpenStreetMap-Foundation servers (or for OpenStreetMap but on another server), with information harvested in the osm wiki. It is a parallel system to wikidata.org by wikimedia.(?)

Yes. The OSM "data items" use the same software as Wikidata, but it's an
entirely separate installation on wiki.openstreetmap.org. Technically,
it's just an add-on (extension) for the wiki software.

There *is* a Wikidata link on some key and tag pages, but that is simply
an outgoing external link which doesn't do anything magical and is
unrelated to the above.

Tobias

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tag templates in the wiki

Yuri Astrakhan-2
"OSM meta item" or a "OSM meta dataitem"... naming is hard :)

Wikibase is too close to Wikidata, thus has caused some confusion -- that's why I avoid calling it that.

I agree that we can (and should!) customize data items editing experience, make it simpler for OSM community. This is surprisingly easy, and requires just a bit of JavaScript skills (and some time).  By comparison, Wikidata has hundreds of such tools for editing Wikidata, so we can build our UI based on that knowledge.

The main goal of data items is to solve a significant data problem we have at the moment -- documentation does not match across languages. Languages do not agree on statuses (obsolete, in use, approved, ...).  So do usage rules (onWay, onNode, ...).

So we either have to agree that the mapper's language determines how they should map, and cause issues in the areas of multilingual mappers, or we try to fix it the proper way - by having one source of truth that documents most basic data in a language-agnostic way, and each wiki page reflect that.

Another big benefit of data items is the ability for the 3rd party tools, such as iD editor, to directly use this data, without the complexities of (often broken) wiki markup parsing.  In part thanks to the iD showing tag info from data items, the descriptions have been edited tens of thousands of times by over 50 users.

Hope this helps, cheers!
-Yuri

On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 5:46 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
I’ve been calling the system “wikibase”, but don’t know if this is clearer. 

I’d avoid saying “OSM data items” because this sounds very similar to “OSM database objects”.’

We could say “(OSM) wiki data items”? 

Or “Openstreetmap.org wikibase data items”?

But what do we call the whole data system: “the OSM wiki wikibase?” 
wiki.openstreetmap.org wikibase?”
openstreetmap.org wiki data item system?”

Ugh. I can’t think of a 100% clear and unambiguous term to use for data items or the whole system. 

It’s hard to avoid confusion with the OSM database (nodes/ways) vs the wiki data.

Joseph

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 4:18 AM Tobias Knerr <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 12.08.19 20:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> AFAIK the template is not filled from wikidata.org but rather from a wikidata installation on OpenStreetMap-Foundation servers (or for OpenStreetMap but on another server), with information harvested in the osm wiki. It is a parallel system to wikidata.org by wikimedia.(?)

Yes. The OSM "data items" use the same software as Wikidata, but it's an
entirely separate installation on wiki.openstreetmap.org. Technically,
it's just an add-on (extension) for the wiki software.

There *is* a Wikidata link on some key and tag pages, but that is simply
an outgoing external link which doesn't do anything magical and is
unrelated to the above.

Tobias

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tag templates in the wiki

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by dieterdreist



12 Aug 2019, 20:24 by [hidden email]:


sent from a phone
On 12. Aug 2019, at 18:02, Andy Townsend <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don't think it's unavoidable - presumably you can just ignore the wikidata stuff and carry on as before?


I had thought so as well, but then I saw the edit which removed the whole template information from the page and it continued to show the information, so it was clear there was another system, which isn’t currently logged in the page history, and is another layer of complexity which makes it harder to add this or to note when someone changes it.
Fortunately we can (and should) ignore it
by filling parameters of the template.

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tag templates in the wiki

Hufkratzer
On 13.08.2019 07:21, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

12 Aug 2019, 20:24 by [hidden email]:


sent from a phone
On 12. Aug 2019, at 18:02, Andy Townsend [hidden email] wrote:

I don't think it's unavoidable - presumably you can just ignore the wikidata stuff and carry on as before?


I had thought so as well, but then I saw the edit which removed the whole template information from the page and it continued to show the information, so it was clear there was another system, which isn’t currently logged in the page history, and is another layer of complexity which makes it harder to add this or to note when someone changes it.
Fortunately we can (and should) ignore it
by filling parameters of the template.


On the wiki pages you can ignore / overwrite most of the the values from data items but in iD you always get the values from the data items. In JOSM not yet, but perhaps that will come one day too, see  https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/17842  So perhaps better not ignore them.


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tag templates in the wiki

Joseph Eisenberg
Re: >On the wiki pages you can ignore / overwrite most of the the
values from data items but in iD you always get the values from the
data items.

Yuri,

This is quite concerning. If ID is getting descriptions and other data
from the data items, but the pages are displaying the text on the
page, it is easy for someone to edit a data item to be entirely
different than the previous wiki description, yet no one will know:
there will not be any notifications to those watching the wiki, and
the text on the wiki won't change.

This seems like a serious maintenance problem.

Also, right now I can use taglists to check the descriptions of many
features all it once, in a particular language, eg. everything on Map
Features.

Is there any way to do this with the data items direction - see a list
of all the descriptions for a whole list of data items at months,
instead of clicking on a links one by one by one?

Joseph

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tag templates in the wiki

Peter Elderson
I guess next, someone will come up with another solution to replace both, so we will have three solutuions. And then, someone...

Vr gr Peter Elderson


Op di 13 aug. 2019 om 09:26 schreef Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>:
Re: >On the wiki pages you can ignore / overwrite most of the the
values from data items but in iD you always get the values from the
data items.

Yuri,

This is quite concerning. If ID is getting descriptions and other data
from the data items, but the pages are displaying the text on the
page, it is easy for someone to edit a data item to be entirely
different than the previous wiki description, yet no one will know:
there will not be any notifications to those watching the wiki, and
the text on the wiki won't change.

This seems like a serious maintenance problem.

Also, right now I can use taglists to check the descriptions of many
features all it once, in a particular language, eg. everything on Map
Features.

Is there any way to do this with the data items direction - see a list
of all the descriptions for a whole list of data items at months,
instead of clicking on a links one by one by one?

Joseph

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tag templates in the wiki

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Hufkratzer



13 Aug 2019, 07:52 by [hidden email]:
Fortunately we can (and should) ignore it
by filling parameters of the template.


On the wiki pages you can ignore / overwrite most of the the values from data items but in iD you always get the values from the data items. In JOSM not yet, but perhaps that will come one day too, see https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/17842  So perhaps better not ignore them.
AFAIK there is supposed to be a bot that overwrites
data items by what was edited on the wiki.

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tag templates in the wiki

Joseph Eisenberg
Unfortunately, the "bot" stops working if the data item is directly
edited, according to Yurik's comment on my talk page:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User_talk:Jeisenbe#Status_removal

"...I couldn't get the status "abandoned" to show up as an option, so
gave up. I expect your bot will fix it in the morning. ..." - Jeisenbe
" Sadly no, the bot won't fix it -- it will never touch anything
contaminated by humans :) In other words, if you modify a specific
property of a data item, that property becomes taboo for the bot. So
it has to be forever maintained by the human." - Yurik

On 8/13/19, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> 13 Aug 2019, 07:52 by [hidden email]:
>>> Fortunately we can (and should) ignore it
>>> by filling parameters of the template.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> On the wiki pages you can ignore / overwrite most of the the values
>> from data items but in iD you always get the values from the data
>> items. In JOSM not yet, but perhaps that will come one day too, see >
>> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/17842
>> <https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/17842>>      So perhaps better not
>> ignore them.
>>
> AFAIK there is supposed to be a bot that overwrites
> data items by what was edited on the wiki.

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tag templates in the wiki

Paul Allen
On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 at 15:05, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

"...I couldn't get the status "abandoned" to show up as an option, so
gave up. I expect your bot will fix it in the morning. ..." - Jeisenbe
" Sadly no, the bot won't fix it -- it will never touch anything
contaminated by humans :) In other words, if you modify a specific
property of a data item, that property becomes taboo for the bot. So
it has to be forever maintained by the human." - Yurik

I suppose the bot could be bi-directional, using the most-recently changed to update the
least-recently changed, if the wikidata keeps track of modification date/time.  But it might
be undesirable because it could lead to unintentional edits wars with one person changing
the wiki and the other changing the wikidata, neither realizing what is happening.

What might be feasible, and better is one of the following (in order of preference)

1) Editor warns somebody editing that part of the page that they ought to make the change
to the wikidata.  But many of us prefer the source editor, so that may not be possible at all.

2) Bot mails the person who changed that part of the page that the wikidata needs to be
edited to match.  If, after a set period of time, no such change is made, an admin is mailed.

3) The bot mails an admin to come clear up the mess.

4) The bot forces the page to match the wikidata and emails the person who made the
change to alter the wikidata instead, including details of the changes made in the mail.
If, after a set period of time, no such change is made, an admin is mailed.

5) The bot forces the page to match the wikidate and emails and admin to fix things,
including details of the changes made in the mail.

None of those are perfect, and maybe somebody can come up with something better.

--
Paul


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tag templates in the wiki

Hufkratzer
On 13.08.2019 16:16, Paul Allen wrote:
 > [...] None of those are perfect, and maybe somebody can come up with
something better. [...]

My suggestion is that the bot only updates in one direction: values ​​of
wiki pages always take precedence and override corresponding fields in
the data elements. On the data element pages, these fields should either
be uneditable or at least marked somehow to warn everyone about the bot.

Reasons:
1. Get a complete history on the wiki pages. The history of the data
element pages is not very helpful because it is cluttered with bot edits
and does not contain many meaningful comments. There is a gadget written
by Yuri that you can use to add something to the auto-generated
changeset comments. However, it is still buggy and is used by only a few
people (see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:GadgetUsage).
2. Someone who wants to edit something that appears on a wiki page needs
to look at the entire page and see if this (intended) change is
compatible with the rest of the page. I'm assuming that then he will
often find out that he should have edited the wiki page anyway to
achieve this.

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tag templates in the wiki

Paul Allen
On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 at 19:20, Hufkratzer <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 13.08.2019 16:16, Paul Allen wrote:
 > [...] None of those are perfect, and maybe somebody can come up with
something better. [...]

My suggestion is that the bot only updates in one direction: values of
wiki pages always take precedence and override corresponding fields in
the data elements. On the data element pages, these fields should either
be uneditable or at least marked somehow to warn everyone about the bot.

Reasons:
[...]

Makes sense to me.  I expect there's some deeper reason we haven't thought of why
this is a bad idea, but I find your reasons compelling.

--
Paul


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
12