tagging camping

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
7 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

tagging camping

Rob Savoye
  I've been wondering about the proper way to tag camp_pitches and
camp_sites to avoid bloat and duplication. It seems to me that within
most campgrounds, there are global tags that don't need to be applied to
each individual camp_pitch. And that each camp_pitch within that
camp_site should only have the tag if it differs from the global value;

 I think that the camp node/way/relation should have tags like:

For camp_site:
 toilets=yes/no
 openfire=yes/no
 drinking_water=yes/no
 fee=yes/no
 barbeque_grill=yes/no
 picnic_table=yes/no
 bear_box=yes/no
 tents=yes/no
 caravans=yes/no
 group_only=yes/no
 internet_access=yes/no
 power=yes/no

For camp_pitch:
 openfire=yes/no
 barbeque_grill=yes/no
 picnic_table=yes/no
 bear_box=yes/no
 tents=yes/no
 caravans=yes/no
 group_only=yes/no
 access=handicap
 internet_access=yes/no
 power=yes/no
 drinking_water=yes/no

  The wiki doesn't say much about this topic. Many camp_sites within OSM
are sparsely tagged (at least around here), so that wasn't much of a
guide either.

        - rob -

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tagging camping

Paul Allen
On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 at 19:38, Rob Savoye <[hidden email]> wrote:

For camp_pitch:
 
[...]
internet_access=yes/no

So a campground owner is going to put Faraday cages around certain pitches to ensure
they cannot receive WiFi?  Or is going to put very restricted-range WiFi points on certain
pitches?  Or is going to run ethernet cables to some pitches but not others?

I don't see this of being much use in real-life situations.

--
Paul


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tagging camping

Rob Savoye
On 9/8/19 12:46 PM, Paul Allen wrote:

> So a campground owner is going to put Faraday cages around certain
> pitches to ensure
> they cannot receive WiFi?  Or is going to put very restricted-range WiFi
> points on certain
> pitches?  Or is going to run ethernet cables to some pitches but not others?
>
> I don't see this of being much use in real-life situations.

  I agree it's trivial data, and probably the wrong tag. I was trying to
cover cases were an individual camp_pitch may have a cell connection.
Especially in widely distributed camp spots in the more remote parts of
the western US, I occasionally find a camping spot with cell
connectivity, and others may find that useful.

  Also note that in the US, most KOA and other commercial campgrounds
have wifi. That coverage doesn't get to every camp_pitch though.

  And yes, I have definitely camped where there were ethernet and power
cables running to many locations. :-)

        -rob -

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tagging camping

Paul Allen
On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 at 19:55, Rob Savoye <[hidden email]> wrote:

  I agree it's trivial data, and probably the wrong tag. I was trying to
cover cases were an individual camp_pitch may have a cell connection.
Especially in widely distributed camp spots in the more remote parts of
the western US, I occasionally find a camping spot with cell
connectivity, and others may find that useful.

Cell connection isn't (necessarily) an internet connection.  More importantly, WiFi
may be free or chargeable by the site operator but cellular internet is something
you pay your ISP for.  Not the same thing at all.

Also, cellular connectivity changes as operators add towers or reconfigure existing
ones.  There's also the consideration of whether there's 2G,  3G, 4G or 5G.  Probably
best left to one of the dedicated cellular mapping apps such as cellmapper because
that info is a little more likely to be updated more frequently.

  Also note that in the US, most KOA and other commercial campgrounds
have wifi. That coverage doesn't get to every camp_pitch though.

In the UK if a campground stated they offer WiFi and some pitches didn't get it
there would be complaints.  Grounds for prosecution about misleading
advertising, even.

  And yes, I have definitely camped where there were ethernet and power
cables running to many locations. :-)

With wired ethernet you have a point.  I've not seen any campgrounds here offer
anything other than WiFI, though.

--
Paul


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tagging camping

Rob Savoye
On 9/8/19 1:09 PM, Paul Allen wrote:

> Also, cellular connectivity changes as operators add towers or
> reconfigure existing ones.  There's also the consideration of whether
> there's 2G,  3G, 4G or 5G.  Probably best left to one of the
> dedicated cellular mapping apps such as cellmapper because that info
> is a little more likely to be updated more frequently.

  Ah, hadn't thought of that. I'm not hung up on using this tag, I was
just trying to make a complete list... but a different database might be
better maintained.

> In the UK if a campground stated they offer WiFi and some pitches didn't
> get it there would be complaints.  Grounds for prosecution about misleading
> advertising, even.

  Interesting. That isn't the case in the western US, or other countries
I've been in. Some even tell you were to stay if you want better
connectivity from your camp. They're usually honest about spotty
coverage, so not really a problem. Often the only wifi router is in the
main office/lodge, so it's pretty easy be out of range.

  Note the entire purpose of camping should not be making sure you have
a data connection. :-) I work in the field for prolonged periods, so
sometimes drop into a real campground to sync up data. (and a shower)

> With wired ethernet you have a point.  I've not seen any campgrounds
> here offer anything other than WiFI, though.

  Chaos Camp. :-) And a few other Hacker camp-outs I've attended. These
are temporary, so of course not worth mapping.

        - rob -

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tagging camping

Paul Allen
On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 at 20:24, Rob Savoye <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 9/8/19 1:09 PM, Paul Allen wrote:

> Also, cellular connectivity changes as operators add towers or
> reconfigure existing ones.  There's also the consideration of whether
> there's 2G,  3G, 4G or 5G.  Probably best left to one of the
> dedicated cellular mapping apps such as cellmapper because that info
> is a little more likely to be updated more frequently.

  Ah, hadn't thought of that. I'm not hung up on using this tag, I was
just trying to make a complete list... but a different database might be
better maintained.

Maybe, maybe not.  There are two or three different ones (at least).  I like cellmapper
because there's an option to use OSM as the basemap (actually, it's about the only
option after they dropped Google maps) so I can get some cellular data while
surveying then later (can be up to a couple of weeks when their servers are
overloaded) see where I've been.  Could be useful for some mapping footpaths
through woods, but I think you can run something like GPSlogger at the same time.

The other thing with cellmapper is it calculates where towers are but gives you
the option to relocate them if you identify the tower visually.  I can not only
relocate the tower in cellmapper, I can tag the tower on OSM too and have them
coincide.

Oh, and something like cellmapper displays signal strengths on the map rather than
hiding them away in a tag where you have to use the query tool to find out if a camp pitch
has a signal.

> In the UK if a campground stated they offer WiFi and some pitches didn't
> get it there would be complaints.  Grounds for prosecution about misleading
> advertising, even.

  Interesting. That isn't the case in the western US, or other countries
I've been in. Some even tell you were to stay if you want better
connectivity from your camp.

The websites of UK campgrounds I've looked at say WiFi with nothing about spotty
coverage.  Anybody who booked a pitch on the basis of that and then found their
pitch didn't have coverage would be very upset.  And be able to make a legitimate
complaint to Trading Standards.

Often the only wifi router is in the main office/lodge, so it's pretty easy be out of range.

In which case they're doing things on the cheap.  Especially if some of the pitches
have power. WiFi relays are dirt cheap these days.  More expensive is a weatherproof,
non-metallic enclosure to stop them getting soaked or stolen without blocking the
signal.

  Note the entire purpose of camping should not be making sure you have
a data connection. :-)

If you have kids, WiFi is probably essential.  Especially around here, where it's often
raining.  If you're a FarceBook addict, WiFi is definitely essential.

--
Paul


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: tagging camping

Joseph Eisenberg
The correct value for WIFI access is "internet_access=wlan" - this is
distinct from cellular internet or a wired connection
("internat_access=wired"). See
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:internet_access

" there are global tags that don't need to be applied to
each individual camp_pitch. And that each camp_pitch within that
camp_site should only have the tag if it differs from the global value"

Sure. I was trying to mention something about that at the proposal:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Campsite_properties

On 9/9/19, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 at 20:24, Rob Savoye <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 9/8/19 1:09 PM, Paul Allen wrote:
>>
>> > Also, cellular connectivity changes as operators add towers or
>> > reconfigure existing ones.  There's also the consideration of whether
>> > there's 2G,  3G, 4G or 5G.  Probably best left to one of the
>> > dedicated cellular mapping apps such as cellmapper because that info
>> > is a little more likely to be updated more frequently.
>>
>>   Ah, hadn't thought of that. I'm not hung up on using this tag, I was
>> just trying to make a complete list... but a different database might be
>> better maintained.
>>
>
> Maybe, maybe not.  There are two or three different ones (at least).  I
> like cellmapper
> because there's an option to use OSM as the basemap (actually, it's about
> the only
> option after they dropped Google maps) so I can get some cellular data
> while
> surveying then later (can be up to a couple of weeks when their servers are
> overloaded) see where I've been.  Could be useful for some mapping
> footpaths
> through woods, but I think you can run something like GPSlogger at the same
> time.
>
> The other thing with cellmapper is it calculates where towers are but gives
> you
> the option to relocate them if you identify the tower visually.  I can not
> only
> relocate the tower in cellmapper, I can tag the tower on OSM too and have
> them
> coincide.
>
> Oh, and something like cellmapper displays signal strengths on the map
> rather than
> hiding them away in a tag where you have to use the query tool to find out
> if a camp pitch
> has a signal.
>
>> In the UK if a campground stated they offer WiFi and some pitches didn't
>> > get it there would be complaints.  Grounds for prosecution about
>> misleading
>> > advertising, even.
>>
>>   Interesting. That isn't the case in the western US, or other countries
>> I've been in. Some even tell you were to stay if you want better
>> connectivity from your camp.
>
>
> The websites of UK campgrounds I've looked at say WiFi with nothing about
> spotty
> coverage.  Anybody who booked a pitch on the basis of that and then found
> their
> pitch didn't have coverage would be very upset.  And be able to make a
> legitimate
> complaint to Trading Standards.
>
> Often the only wifi router is in the main office/lodge, so it's pretty easy
>> be out of range.
>>
>
> In which case they're doing things on the cheap.  Especially if some of the
> pitches
> have power. WiFi relays are dirt cheap these days.  More expensive is a
> weatherproof,
> non-metallic enclosure to stop them getting soaked or stolen without
> blocking the
> signal.
>
>   Note the entire purpose of camping should not be making sure you have
>> a data connection. :-)
>
>
> If you have kids, WiFi is probably essential.  Especially around here,
> where it's often
> raining.  If you're a FarceBook addict, WiFi is definitely essential.
>
> --
> Paul
>

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging