tagging extremely large flood control features.

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tagging extremely large flood control features.

Tagging mailing list
With the recent typhoon in Japan, I was able to see the giant river flood control systems used for the first time (since I moved here in 2011). they are the size of cities, covering many sq KM. 

There are some photos here, showing a cycling trip I took downriver to see how it works.

a few show the Watarase Usuichi.  https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/482421468 

Inside, there are three “retarding basins”  (numbered 1, 2 & 3), with #1 having with a large traditional reservoir, parks, golf course, and sports grounds inside.  

As the rivers get higher, they flow into the basins via ~6m spillways upriver. eventually basins and the rivers fill up,
and the three flood control basins & the rivers merge together to form one giant lake (controlled and planned), controlled by 10M levees around the entire complex. Exit gates let the water back out into the river in a controlled rate to prevent flooding. But during the recent giant typhoon, it filled the system and flowed out of the emergency overflow spillway (~8M), seen in the background of this picture (the white line) https://i.imgur.com/z1QfYAW.jpg 

The entire system worked as planned. 

These features are almost 100% man-made (levees, gates, spillways), that create large artificial lakes for very short periods  very infrequently. 

The building seen in the “lake” here https://i.imgur.com/CDU5KfE.jpg is this building. It is designed to be ~1m above the flood waters, as it is in the picture.  


This complex is rarely used, perhaps once or twice every 5 years, and otherwise the area is many many square KM of golf courses, parks, sports fields, nature preserves and farmland used by people every day. 

mapping the area as an “intermittant reservoir” seems wrong, as they are merely for extreme typhoon floodwater management, and the rest of the time is is useful area for people to use. They are not “flood prone” (as I understand it), as they are *designed* to flood, and flooded in a controlled manner.

While mapping further downriver, I found a “smaller" flood control area. a giant spillway 200m across lets the river into this huge area (mostly rice fields), and control gates at the bottom of the area slowly let it back out. 

This area is confined on all sides with ~10M levees (and a few natural hills). 


(I quickly drew this way, but I will delete it). 

How should I go about tagging these kinds of huge areas - an area that is a controlled flood reservoir, used only during extreme weather? 


Javbw

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Re: tagging extremely large flood control features.

Paul Allen
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 10:56, John Willis via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

Inside, there are three “retarding basins”  (numbered 1, 2 & 3), with #1 having with a large traditional reservoir, parks, golf course, and sports grounds inside.  

There is more to the system than that.  There are also underground holding tanks and

--
Paul


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Re: tagging extremely large flood control features.

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I am aware of the underground basins that are dedicated to the task, but I am wondering how to map above-ground basins that are used as regular land 360+ days of the year - something you don't have to deal with when mapping the underground tanks.  

~~~~~


The rest is not important, but read on if you Want. 


Yea, Thats in Tokyo on the Arakawa/Edo rivers, the the Tokyo metro area. The start of the Edo river is a lock-controlled flow from the Tone - as the larger Tone goes off to the Pacific 70 Km north of Tokyo (it doesn't discharge into Tokyo Bay). 

As I understand it, those tanks manage the water going into the system in Tokyo itself, absorbing the flow from the smaller channels/rivers in Tokyo (Tokyo is big and flat) and buffering it before it gets discharged into the rivers, absorbing what would normally be trapped behind the River levees. The Tokyo tank system couldn't handle the river flow directly (it's immense) - The rivers channeling water down through the region just use extra-wide and tall 8-10m levees to provide ~ 10-15x normal flow volume to the sea. (The river goes from 1-2m deep to 8-9m deep, and doubles in width) 

Small towns in my area (pictured) were flooded not by a levee breach, but by water trapped outside the levee that couldn't get into the river through the normal gates.  

The Tokyo system prevents that from happening - though I wonder if it could absorb even a quarter of what the Usuichi trapped. The Usuichi is gigantic. 

Javbw

On Oct 24, 2019, at 9:08 PM, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 10:56, John Willis via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

Inside, there are three “retarding basins”  (numbered 1, 2 & 3), with #1 having with a large traditional reservoir, parks, golf course, and sports grounds inside.  

There is more to the system than that.  There are also underground holding tanks and

--
Paul


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Re: tagging extremely large flood control features.

Joseph Eisenberg
I think describing these as "flood prone" in some way is a good idea.

I imagine you've already mapped the individual features: the levees
(man_made=dyke), the individual basins and so on. I wouldn't want to
map the whole area as water + intermittent=yes because the water is
only rarely present.

Perhaps we need a new tag to map a whole area as flood prone? I've
seen that on French and Australian topo maps there is a specific
rendering for areas that are "subject to inundation".

-Joseph

On 10/24/19, John Willis via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am aware of the underground basins that are dedicated to the task, but I
> am wondering how to map above-ground basins that are used as regular land
> 360+ days of the year - something you don't have to deal with when mapping
> the underground tanks.
>
> ~~~~~
>
>
> The rest is not important, but read on if you Want.
>
>
> Yea, Thats in Tokyo on the Arakawa/Edo rivers, the the Tokyo metro area. The
> start of the Edo river is a lock-controlled flow from the Tone - as the
> larger Tone goes off to the Pacific 70 Km north of Tokyo (it doesn't
> discharge into Tokyo Bay).
>
> As I understand it, those tanks manage the water going into the system in
> Tokyo itself, absorbing the flow from the smaller channels/rivers in Tokyo
> (Tokyo is big and flat) and buffering it before it gets discharged into the
> rivers, absorbing what would normally be trapped behind the River levees.
> The Tokyo tank system couldn't handle the river flow directly (it's immense)
> - The rivers channeling water down through the region just use extra-wide
> and tall 8-10m levees to provide ~ 10-15x normal flow volume to the sea.
> (The river goes from 1-2m deep to 8-9m deep, and doubles in width)
>
> Small towns in my area (pictured) were flooded not by a levee breach, but by
> water trapped outside the levee that couldn't get into the river through the
> normal gates.
>
> The Tokyo system prevents that from happening - though I wonder if it could
> absorb even a quarter of what the Usuichi trapped. The Usuichi is gigantic.
>
>
> Javbw
>
>> On Oct 24, 2019, at 9:08 PM, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 10:56, John Willis via Tagging
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>
>>> Inside, there are three “retarding basins”  (numbered 1, 2 & 3), with #1
>>> having with a large traditional reservoir, parks, golf course, and sports
>>> grounds inside.
>>
>> There is more to the system than that.  There are also underground holding
>> tanks and
>> tunnels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfJOW2PtrGk
>>
>> --
>> Paul
>>
>

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Re: tagging extremely large flood control features.

Tagging mailing list


> On Oct 24, 2019, at 10:22 PM, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> rendering for areas that are "subject to inundation".

That is a good idea.

I think if you have a large area(unrelated to tides) that sometimes floods during extreme weather, mapping it as an area would be a good idea.

I wonder if that would also be useful for these dedicated and planned Control basins, which are 100% contained by levees and managed by spillways, as the frequency of the flooding is rare, but the extent is pre-determined. they purposefully don't allow houses or (private) structures to be built in them - only grass fields & and farmland.

Javbw.

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Re: tagging extremely large flood control features.

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In a much smaller way, we've got a similar area just near us, where an area has been built to be filled with flood water after very heavy rain. I think it's probably only filled 3-4 times in ~15 years since it was put in.

Some photo's, wet & dry!


There is actually a 1m flood depth sign that should be visible in the middle of that last shot, so it's about 1.2 - 1.5m deep out there.


I mapped it as: 

natural=water
water=basin
basin=retention
intermittent=yes
description=After heavy rain only

which seems to cover it all nicely?
 
Thanks

Graeme

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Re: tagging extremely large flood control features.

Warin
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On 25/10/19 00:20, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> I think describing these as "flood prone" in some way is a good idea.

I think it would be better to use "flood_mitigation" as that implies deliberate design rather than natural event.



>
> I imagine you've already mapped the individual features: the levees
> (man_made=dyke), the individual basins and so on. I wouldn't want to
> map the whole area as water + intermittent=yes because the water is
> only rarely present.
>
> Perhaps we need a new tag to map a whole area as flood prone? I've
> seen that on French and Australian topo maps there is a specific
> rendering for areas that are "subject to inundation".

These areas are inundated by their nature, where are the features to be mapped are designed to be flooded to mitigate any flooding elsewhere. I think rendering should reflect that.

>
> -Joseph
>
> On 10/24/19, John Willis via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I am aware of the underground basins that are dedicated to the task, but I
>> am wondering how to map above-ground basins that are used as regular land
>> 360+ days of the year - something you don't have to deal with when mapping
>> the underground tanks

There appear to be 2 things to be mapped.

Existing features that have this "flood_mitigation" use - this should be a sub tag on those features.

Areas, that may have several features, that are used for "flood_mitigation" and so need a primary key/value to stand alone.


>>
>> ~~~~~
>>
>>
>> The rest is not important, but read on if you Want.
>>
>>
>> Yea, Thats in Tokyo on the Arakawa/Edo rivers, the the Tokyo metro area. The
>> start of the Edo river is a lock-controlled flow from the Tone - as the
>> larger Tone goes off to the Pacific 70 Km north of Tokyo (it doesn't
>> discharge into Tokyo Bay).
>>
>> As I understand it, those tanks manage the water going into the system in
>> Tokyo itself, absorbing the flow from the smaller channels/rivers in Tokyo
>> (Tokyo is big and flat) and buffering it before it gets discharged into the
>> rivers, absorbing what would normally be trapped behind the River levees.
>> The Tokyo tank system couldn't handle the river flow directly (it's immense)
>> - The rivers channeling water down through the region just use extra-wide
>> and tall 8-10m levees to provide ~ 10-15x normal flow volume to the sea.
>> (The river goes from 1-2m deep to 8-9m deep, and doubles in width)
>>
>> Small towns in my area (pictured) were flooded not by a levee breach, but by
>> water trapped outside the levee that couldn't get into the river through the
>> normal gates.
>>
>> The Tokyo system prevents that from happening - though I wonder if it could
>> absorb even a quarter of what the Usuichi trapped. The Usuichi is gigantic.
>>
>>
>> Javbw
>>
>>> On Oct 24, 2019, at 9:08 PM, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 10:56, John Willis via Tagging
>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Inside, there are three “retarding basins”  (numbered 1, 2 & 3), with #1
>>>> having with a large traditional reservoir, parks, golf course, and sports
>>>> grounds inside.
>>> There is more to the system than that.  There are also underground holding
>>> tanks and
>>> tunnels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfJOW2PtrGk
>>>
>>> --
>>> Paul
>>>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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Re: tagging extremely large flood control features.

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick
I think that should be basin=detention or perhaps basin=infiltration?
A retention basin is filled with water most of the time.

basin=infiltration — An infiltration basin catches storm water and
allows it to seep into an aquifer.
basin=detention — A detention basin catches storm water and allows it
to drain slowly into natural waterways.
basin=retention — A retention basin catches storm water and retains
it, forming an artificial pond.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse=basin


- Joseph

On 10/25/19, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In a *much* smaller way, we've got a similar area just near us, where an
> area has been built to be filled with flood water after very heavy rain. I
> think it's probably only filled 3-4 times in ~15 years since it was put in.
>
> Some photo's, wet & dry!
>
> https://ibb.co/SdVF7kt
> https://ibb.co/4N3mWzQ
>
> https://ibb.co/S0Rzqtr
> https://ibb.co/bF4Pf2g
>
> There is actually a 1m flood depth sign that should be visible in the
> middle of that last shot, so it's about 1.2 - 1.5m deep out there.
>
> It's here:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/538666044#map=18/-28.07363/153.42448
>
> I mapped it as:
>
> natural=water
> water=basin
> basin=retention
> intermittent=yes
> description=After heavy rain only
>
> which seems to cover it all nicely?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>

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Re: tagging extremely large flood control features.

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Warin
I see what you mean. Perhaps the key can help show this:

man_made=* for a built environment designed to hold flood waters

natural=* for a semi-natural or natural area that occasionally floods
(like some basins the the Australian outback, which form lakes only
once every 10 or 100 years?)

The value should have something that suggests that it will be flooded.
I would think of "flood_mitigation" as something like a levee or dyke
which prevents flooding, rather than an area that is supposed to be
flooded.

So... maybe man_made=flood_basin and natural=flood_basin?

Or something like flood_zone, flood_area, etc?

- Joseph

On 10/25/19, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 25/10/19 00:20, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>> I think describing these as "flood prone" in some way is a good idea.
>
> I think it would be better to use "flood_mitigation" as that implies
> deliberate design rather than natural event.
>
>
>
>>
>> I imagine you've already mapped the individual features: the levees
>> (man_made=dyke), the individual basins and so on. I wouldn't want to
>> map the whole area as water + intermittent=yes because the water is
>> only rarely present.
>>
>> Perhaps we need a new tag to map a whole area as flood prone? I've
>> seen that on French and Australian topo maps there is a specific
>> rendering for areas that are "subject to inundation".
>
> These areas are inundated by their nature, where are the features to be
> mapped are designed to be flooded to mitigate any flooding elsewhere. I
> think rendering should reflect that.
>
>>
>> -Joseph
>>
>> On 10/24/19, John Willis via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I am aware of the underground basins that are dedicated to the task, but
>>> I
>>> am wondering how to map above-ground basins that are used as regular land
>>> 360+ days of the year - something you don't have to deal with when
>>> mapping
>>> the underground tanks
>
> There appear to be 2 things to be mapped.
>
> Existing features that have this "flood_mitigation" use - this should be a
> sub tag on those features.
>
> Areas, that may have several features, that are used for "flood_mitigation"
> and so need a primary key/value to stand alone.
>
>
>>>
>>> ~~~~~
>>>
>>>
>>> The rest is not important, but read on if you Want.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yea, Thats in Tokyo on the Arakawa/Edo rivers, the the Tokyo metro area.
>>> The
>>> start of the Edo river is a lock-controlled flow from the Tone - as the
>>> larger Tone goes off to the Pacific 70 Km north of Tokyo (it doesn't
>>> discharge into Tokyo Bay).
>>>
>>> As I understand it, those tanks manage the water going into the system in
>>> Tokyo itself, absorbing the flow from the smaller channels/rivers in
>>> Tokyo
>>> (Tokyo is big and flat) and buffering it before it gets discharged into
>>> the
>>> rivers, absorbing what would normally be trapped behind the River levees.
>>> The Tokyo tank system couldn't handle the river flow directly (it's
>>> immense)
>>> - The rivers channeling water down through the region just use extra-wide
>>> and tall 8-10m levees to provide ~ 10-15x normal flow volume to the sea.
>>> (The river goes from 1-2m deep to 8-9m deep, and doubles in width)
>>>
>>> Small towns in my area (pictured) were flooded not by a levee breach, but
>>> by
>>> water trapped outside the levee that couldn't get into the river through
>>> the
>>> normal gates.
>>>
>>> The Tokyo system prevents that from happening - though I wonder if it
>>> could
>>> absorb even a quarter of what the Usuichi trapped. The Usuichi is
>>> gigantic.
>>>
>>>
>>> Javbw
>>>
>>>> On Oct 24, 2019, at 9:08 PM, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 10:56, John Willis via Tagging
>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Inside, there are three “retarding basins”  (numbered 1, 2 & 3), with
>>>>> #1
>>>>> having with a large traditional reservoir, parks, golf course, and
>>>>> sports
>>>>> grounds inside.
>>>> There is more to the system than that.  There are also underground
>>>> holding
>>>> tanks and
>>>> tunnels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfJOW2PtrGk
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

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Re: tagging extremely large flood control features.

Tagging mailing list

> On Oct 25, 2019, at 10:53 AM, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The value should have something that suggests that it will be flooded.
> I would think of "flood_mitigation" as something like a levee or dyke
> which prevents flooding, rather than an area that is supposem to be
> flooded.
>
> So... maybe man_made=flood_basin and natural=flood_basin?

Man_made=flood_mitigation_basin sounds good.

>
> Or something like flood_zone,flood_area, etc?

This is for an area that floods, for whatever reason, but doesn't map the feature of the basin.

Javbw




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Re: tagging extremely large flood control features.

marc marc
Le 25.10.19 à 20:29, John Willis via Tagging a écrit :

>
>> On Oct 25, 2019, at 10:53 AM, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> The value should have something that suggests that it will be flooded.
>> I would think of "flood_mitigation" as something like a levee or dyke
>> which prevents flooding, rather than an area that is supposem to be
>> flooded.
>>
>> So... maybe man_made=flood_basin and natural=flood_basin?
>
> Man_made=flood_mitigation_basin sounds good.

that look like 2 infos into one key :s

man_made=basin usage=flood_mitigation ?
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Re: tagging extremely large flood control features.

Tagging mailing list

> On Oct 26, 2019, at 6:01 AM, marc marc <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Man_made=flood_mitigation_basin sounds good.
>
> that look like 2 infos into one key :s
>
> man_made=basin usage=flood_mitigation ?

Yes, my bad. I think that is a good solution for the basin.

One big question. Something has been bothering me about the basin:

So far, we have been discussing discrete structures that are contained. They have an inlet weir or spillway, and have an exit drain or giant sluice gate Leading to the drain of the system (usually back to the river). A basin seems like a good label for this structure.

I am unfamiliar with other countries, but Japan makes extensive use of land inside the river levees. The levees are often spaced 20-100m away from an internal embankment, which is the normal "riverbank",  where normal storms are contained. 1-3m Above this embankment are heavily used sports grounds, parks, golf courses driving school grounds, and other very well-maintained facilities that are expected To be underwater during a floo-event. No buildings or structures are allowed.

Similar to these basins, the extent of the flooding is known (inside the levees) and is otherwise normally usable grounds 360+ days a year.

Is the long channel formed by the levees, but almost never used except during flooding also some version of this? Is mapping the extent of the levee flooding already Mappable? If that is the case, then these currently discussed basins are *inside* the levee protection system (a large bulge with a narrow bottleneck at the spillway connecting it to the river levee - yet "part" of the raging river during flooding, just like the Riverside land.

Would it be better to have a tag that is able to handle this "inside the levee" area, or just map the basins as separate objects? Would having a feature like "floodbank" be useful?

Would it cover from levee to levee, or be two separate things, one for each side of the river, mapping the space between the levee and the riverbank? Would it simply be a way and put in a relation with the waterway that causes it?


 To a farmer or a baseball player, whether your baseball daimond is along the river or in one of the basins makes little difference when a storm is large enough to fill the river.

Javbw.

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Re: tagging extremely large flood control features.

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list
the government released photos of the water control features I’ve mentioned being filled by the recent typhoon. The “flooding” pictured is by design, controlled by short inner and large, tall outer levees. 

This should give people a better idea of the scale of the water features I am talking about. 

it also gives you an idea of how much stuff that is regularly used is (rarely) flooded in these events. it is very irregular. 

~ What it looks like normally, 360+ days a year. the brighter yellow reed grass shows the extent of the basins:



~ 2 years ago, when the rivers and canals filled, but the larger basins were not really used:



~The recent typhoon that completely filled the basins & rivers to become one giant lake (as designed) controlled by the outer levees:



~ Where this river meets the larger river just below (Watarase meets Tone). This flood control system is merely meant to delay a surge into this larger river. 
Localized flooding (rain that can’t drain away) can be seen as clear shiny water in the adjacent fields and villages. it is 1-2m deep. The river is ~9m higher than normal.



Javbw

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Re: tagging extremely large flood control features.

Graeme Fitzpatrick


On Thu, 7 Nov 2019 at 09:50, John Willis via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

That's amazing, thanks, John

~The recent typhoon that completely filled the basins & rivers to become one giant lake (as designed) controlled by the outer levees:


The people living just across the road from the levee banks would have been more than somewhat nervous! :-(

Thanks

Graeme

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