today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

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today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

Oleksiy Muzalyev
Good evening,

There was an helicopter accident at the airport Flugplatz
Haßfurt-Schweinfurt. One man from the ground staff was killed by derbies
when helicopter's propeller blades touched the control tower.

On the news video [1] and on the aerial image of the airport [2] it is
clearly visible that the tower building is not in the same row with
other buildings, it is a bit outstanding.

This tower was not mapped neither on the Google maps, nor on the OSM. I
mapped it by now on the OSM:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/50.01720/10.52705 with the tag:
tower:type=aircraft_control, which has got a nice map icon.

In general, towers, not only aircraft_control, but also communication,
and others, are well visible even from far away, and could serve as good
landmarks. That is why it makes sense to map towers.

[1]
https://rtlnext.rtl.de/cms/bundeswehr-hubschrauber-rammt-tower-flughafenmitarbeiter-von-truemmern-erschlagen-4148088.html

[2]
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt-Schweinfurt#/media/File:Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt_Schweinfurt.jpg

With best regards,

Oleksiy



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Re: today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

Jack Armstrong Dancer@sprynet.com
Are you saying you think an aviation accident could have been avoided if OSM data was better? I've been an air traffic controller for 38 years. Aviation hazards, such as towers at airports, are well charted on navigational charts and airport diagrams which pilots are required to use. A pilot would never use OSM as a means of avoiding ground hazards at an airport. Besides, this particular accident happened at 10:00 A.M. local time, meaning it was daylight. The vast majority of aviation accidents are the result of pilot error. If a helicopter pilot allows his rotor blades to collide with a clearly visible object, that is negligence on the captain's part.


-----Original Message-----

>From: Oleksiy Muzalyev <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Apr 10, 2018 3:44 PM
>To: Talk Openstreetmap <[hidden email]>
>Subject: [OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria
>
>Good evening,
>
>There was an helicopter accident at the airport Flugplatz
>Haßfurt-Schweinfurt. One man from the ground staff was killed by derbies
>when helicopter's propeller blades touched the control tower.
>
>On the news video [1] and on the aerial image of the airport [2] it is
>clearly visible that the tower building is not in the same row with
>other buildings, it is a bit outstanding.
>
>This tower was not mapped neither on the Google maps, nor on the OSM. I
>mapped it by now on the OSM:
>https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/50.01720/10.52705 with the tag:
>tower:type=aircraft_control, which has got a nice map icon.
>
>In general, towers, not only aircraft_control, but also communication,
>and others, are well visible even from far away, and could serve as good
>landmarks. That is why it makes sense to map towers.
>
>[1]
>https://rtlnext.rtl.de/cms/bundeswehr-hubschrauber-rammt-tower-flughafenmitarbeiter-von-truemmern-erschlagen-4148088.html
>
>[2]
>https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt-Schweinfurt#/media/File:Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt_Schweinfurt.jpg
>
>With best regards,
>
>Oleksiy
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>talk mailing list
>[hidden email]
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Re: today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

Milo van der Linden-5
Dear Armstrong, please be aware that Oleksiy is no native english speaker. In his culture and language that is probably not what he is saying.

Kind regards,

Milo van der Linden

On April 11, 2018 3:21:17 AM GMT+02:00, "Jack Armstrong [hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Are you saying you think an aviation accident could have been avoided if OSM data was better? I've been an air traffic controller for 38 years. Aviation hazards, such as towers at airports, are well charted on navigational charts and airport diagrams which pilots are required to use. A pilot would never use OSM as a means of avoiding ground hazards at an airport. Besides, this particular accident happened at 10:00 A.M. local time, meaning it was daylight. The vast majority of aviation accidents are the result of pilot error. If a helicopter pilot allows his rotor blades to collide with a clearly visible object, that is negligence on the captain's part.


-----Original Message-----
From: Oleksiy Muzalyev <[hidden email]>
Sent: Apr 10, 2018 3:44 PM
To: Talk Openstreetmap <[hidden email]>
Subject: [OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

Good evening,

There was an helicopter accident at the airport Flugplatz
Haßfurt-Schweinfurt. One man from the ground staff was killed by derbies
when helicopter's propeller blades touched the control tower.

On the news video [1] and on the aerial image of the airport [2] it is
clearly visible that the tower building is not in the same row with
other buildings, it is a bit outstanding.

This tower was not mapped neither on the Google maps, nor on the OSM. I
mapped it by now on the OSM:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/50.01720/10.52705 with the tag:
tower:type=aircraft_control, which has got a nice map icon.

In general, towers, not only aircraft_control, but also communication,
and others, are well visible even from far away, and could serve as good
landmarks. That is why it makes sense to map towers.

[1]
https://rtlnext.rtl.de/cms/bundeswehr-hubschrauber-rammt-tower-flughafenmitarbeiter-von-truemmern-erschlagen-4148088.html

[2]
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt-Schweinfurt#/media/File:Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt_Schweinfurt.jpg

With best regards,

Oleksiy





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Re: today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

Jo-2
derbies -> debris

Oleksiy's attention was drawn to that airport because of the tragic fatality. He noticed the tower was not mapped, so he mapped it.

Cheers,

Jo

2018-04-11 8:17 GMT+02:00 Milo van der Linden <[hidden email]>:
Dear Armstrong, please be aware that Oleksiy is no native english speaker. In his culture and language that is probably not what he is saying.

Kind regards,

Milo van der Linden

On April 11, 2018 3:21:17 AM GMT+02:00, "Jack Armstrong [hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Are you saying you think an aviation accident could have been avoided if OSM data was better? I've been an air traffic controller for 38 years. Aviation hazards, such as towers at airports, are well charted on navigational charts and airport diagrams which pilots are required to use. A pilot would never use OSM as a means of avoiding ground hazards at an airport. Besides, this particular accident happened at 10:00 A.M. local time, meaning it was daylight. The vast majority of aviation accidents are the result of pilot error. If a helicopter pilot allows his rotor blades to collide with a clearly visible object, that is negligence on the captain's part.


-----Original Message-----
From: Oleksiy Muzalyev <[hidden email]>
Sent: Apr 10, 2018 3:44 PM
To: Talk Openstreetmap <[hidden email]>
Subject: [OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

Good evening,

There was an helicopter accident at the airport Flugplatz
Haßfurt-Schweinfurt. One man from the ground staff was killed by derbies
when helicopter's propeller blades touched the control tower.

On the news video [1] and on the aerial image of the airport [2] it is
clearly visible that the tower building is not in the same row with
other buildings, it is a bit outstanding.

This tower was not mapped neither on the Google maps, nor on the OSM. I
mapped it by now on the OSM:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/50.01720/10.52705 with the tag:
tower:type=aircraft_control, which has got a nice map icon.

In general, towers, not only aircraft_control, but also communication,
and others, are well visible even from far away, and could serve as good
landmarks. That is why it makes sense to map towers.

[1]
https://rtlnext.rtl.de/cms/bundeswehr-hubschrauber-rammt-tower-flughafenmitarbeiter-von-truemmern-erschlagen-4148088.html

[2]
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt-Schweinfurt#/media/File:Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt_Schweinfurt.jpg

With best regards,

Oleksiy





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Re: today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

Oleksiy Muzalyev
Thank you, Jo. It was a typing error. It is definitively debris.

With best regards,
Oleksiy

On 11.04.18 08:27, Jo wrote:
derbies -> debris

Oleksiy's attention was drawn to that airport because of the tragic fatality. He noticed the tower was not mapped, so he mapped it.

Cheers,

Jo

2018-04-11 8:17 GMT+02:00 Milo van der Linden <[hidden email]>:
Dear Armstrong, please be aware that Oleksiy is no native english speaker. In his culture and language that is probably not what he is saying.

Kind regards,

Milo van der Linden

On April 11, 2018 3:21:17 AM GMT+02:00, "Jack Armstrong [hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Are you saying you think an aviation accident could have been avoided if OSM data was better? I've been an air traffic controller for 38 years. Aviation hazards, such as towers at airports, are well charted on navigational charts and airport diagrams which pilots are required to use. A pilot would never use OSM as a means of avoiding ground hazards at an airport. Besides, this particular accident happened at 10:00 A.M. local time, meaning it was daylight. The vast majority of aviation accidents are the result of pilot error. If a helicopter pilot allows his rotor blades to collide with a clearly visible object, that is negligence on the captain's part. -----Original Message-----
From: Oleksiy Muzalyev <[hidden email]> Sent: Apr 10, 2018 3:44 PM To: Talk Openstreetmap <[hidden email]> Subject: [OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria Good evening, There was an helicopter accident at the airport Flugplatz Haßfurt-Schweinfurt. One man from the ground staff was killed by derbies when helicopter's propeller blades touched the control tower. On the news video [1] and on the aerial image of the airport [2] it is clearly visible that the tower building is not in the same row with other buildings, it is a bit outstanding. This tower was not mapped neither on the Google maps, nor on the OSM. I mapped it by now on the OSM: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/50.01720/10.52705 with the tag: tower:type=aircraft_control, which has got a nice map icon. In general, towers, not only aircraft_control, but also communication, and others, are well visible even from far away, and could serve as good landmarks. That is why it makes sense to map towers. [1] https://rtlnext.rtl.de/cms/bundeswehr-hubschrauber-rammt-tower-flughafenmitarbeiter-von-truemmern-erschlagen-4148088.html [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt-Schweinfurt#/media/File:Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt_Schweinfurt.jpg With best regards, Oleksiy
talk mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

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Re: today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

Jack Armstrong Dancer@sprynet.com
In reply to this post by Oleksiy Muzalyev
Yes, I understand. I'm just explaining the situation in greater detail in case there is a misunderstanding :)

-----Original Message-----
From: Jo
Sent: Apr 11, 2018 10:27 AM
To: Milo van der Linden
Cc: "Jack Armstrong [hidden email]" , "Jack Armstrong [hidden email]" , Oleksiy Muzalyev , Talk Openstreetmap
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

derbies -> debris

Oleksiy's attention was drawn to that airport because of the tragic fatality. He noticed the tower was not mapped, so he mapped it.

Cheers,

Jo

2018-04-11 8:17 GMT+02:00 Milo van der Linden <[hidden email]>:
Dear Armstrong, please be aware that Oleksiy is no native english speaker. In his culture and language that is probably not what he is saying.

Kind regards,

Milo van der Linden

On April 11, 2018 3:21:17 AM GMT+02:00, "Jack Armstrong [hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Are you saying you think an aviation accident could have been avoided if OSM data was better? I've been an air traffic controller for 38 years. Aviation hazards, such as towers at airports, are well charted on navigational charts and airport diagrams which pilots are required to use. A pilot would never use OSM as a means of avoiding ground hazards at an airport. Besides, this particular accident happened at 10:00 A.M. local time, meaning it was daylight. The vast majority of aviation accidents are the result of pilot error. If a helicopter pilot allows his rotor blades to collide with a clearly visible object, that is negligence on the captain's part.


-----Original Message-----
From: Oleksiy Muzalyev <[hidden email]>
Sent: Apr 10, 2018 3:44 PM
To: Talk Openstreetmap <[hidden email]>
Subject: [OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

Good evening,

There was an helicopter accident at the airport Flugplatz
Haßfurt-Schweinfurt. One man from the ground staff was killed by derbies
when helicopter's propeller blades touched the control tower.

On the news video [1] and on the aerial image of the airport [2] it is
clearly visible that the tower building is not in the same row with
other buildings, it is a bit outstanding.

This tower was not mapped neither on the Google maps, nor on the OSM. I
mapped it by now on the OSM:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/50.01720/10.52705 with the tag:
tower:type=aircraft_control, which has got a nice map icon.

In general, towers, not only aircraft_control, but also communication,
and others, are well visible even from far away, and could serve as good
landmarks. That is why it makes sense to map towers.

[1]
https://rtlnext.rtl.de/cms/bundeswehr-hubschrauber-rammt-tower-flughafenmitarbeiter-von-truemmern-erschlagen-4148088.html

[2]
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt-Schweinfurt#/media/File:Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt_Schweinfurt.jpg

With best regards,

Oleksiy





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Re: today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

Oleksiy Muzalyev
In reply to this post by Jack Armstrong Dancer@sprynet.com
I worked for ten years as a GOO (ground operations) at a major airline.
I realize that the OSM map is not used by airmen, at least not officially.

I am a certified RPAS (remotely piloted aircraft system) pilot. While
planning a flight at a certain place I look at the official special maps
(for example RPAS restrictions map for CH [1]). But, since no map is
perfect, I look also at the OSM map, different satellite imagery, Google
map, Wikimedia ground and aerial images of a place, if existing, Youtube
videos, etc. to understand what is expecting me at this place.

It is even more complicated for helicopter pilots, since risk and
responsibility are incomparably higher. It is not impossible that an
airman has got a smartphone in his pocket with map apps, and during long
autopilot flight has a look at a place where he has to land, which is
the most complex part of a flight.

Unfortunately, helicopter wire and obstacle strikes happen quite often,
and the stats are nearly evenly split between day and nighttime events.
86% of the fatal accidents occur in clear weather with good visibility [2].

My point is that it would at least not harm if towers, not only control
towers, but communication, observation towers, and other tall structures
are present on a map with an icon. It would be useful for everyone,
since these landmarks are visible from far away at day and night.

[1]
https://map.geo.admin.ch/?topic=aviation&lang=de&bgLayer=ch.swisstopo.pixelkarte-grau&layers=ch.bazl.einschraenkungen-drohnen&layers_opacity=0.6&catalogNodes=1379,2863&E=2635778.01&N=1187912.46&zoom=2
[2]
http://aviationweek.com/business-aviation/how-avoid-helicopter-wire-strikes

With best regards,
Oleksiy

On 11.04.18 03:21, Jack Armstrong [hidden email] wrote:
> Are you saying you think an aviation accident could have been avoided if OSM data was better? I've been an air traffic controller for 38 years. Aviation hazards, such as towers at airports, are well charted on navigational charts and airport diagrams which pilots are required to use. A pilot would never use OSM as a means of avoiding ground hazards at an airport. Besides, this particular accident happened at 10:00 A.M. local time, meaning it was daylight. The vast majority of aviation accidents are the result of pilot error. If a helicopter pilot allows his rotor blades to collide with a clearly visible object, that is negligence on the captain's part.


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Re: today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 11. Apr 2018, at 09:31, Oleksiy Muzalyev <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I realize that the OSM map is not used by airmen, at least not officially.


even less as this was not a hobbyist but a military helicopter

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

Oleksiy Muzalyev
Martin,

The OSM map is being used in a professional context on transportation.
For example, very efficient Stockholm public transport system map:
https://sl.se/en/ . I used this website myself while staying in
Stockholm. I had to visit quite a few cities, but I never saw anything
even remotely close by usefulness and efficiency to Stockholm public
transport. Basically, one builds his/her life around this map over-there.

As for the military, I saw a documentary about a modern military system,
and there was on display of this system unmistakeably the OSM map.

We tend to underestimate the technology available on our smartphones
(including the OSM based maps). For example, I could find my lost
smartphone even in another city in minutes, but some lost planes,
helicopters, or RPAS are being searched for months or even years.

Best regards,
Oleksiy

On 11.04.18 10:04, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 11. Apr 2018, at 09:31, Oleksiy Muzalyev <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I realize that the OSM map is not used by airmen, at least not officially.
>
> even less as this was not a hobbyist but a military helicopter
>
> Cheers,
> Martin



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Re: today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

dieterdreist


2018-04-11 12:08 GMT+02:00 Oleksiy Muzalyev <[hidden email]>:
Martin,

The OSM map is being used in a professional context on transportation. For example, very efficient Stockholm public transport system map: https://sl.se/en/ . I used this website myself while staying in Stockholm. I had to visit quite a few cities, but I never saw anything even remotely close by usefulness and efficiency to Stockholm public transport. Basically, one builds his/her life around this map over-there.

As for the military, I saw a documentary about a modern military system, and there was on display of this system unmistakeably the OSM map.

We tend to underestimate the technology available on our smartphones (including the OSM based maps). For example, I could find my lost smartphone even in another city in minutes, but some lost planes, helicopters, or RPAS are being searched for months or even years.


agreed, I would also believe that the military _also_ might look at OSM (every additional source is always useful), but very likely not for flying aircraft, still, I don't believe there is any correlation whatsoever between a military helicopter touching an airport control tower at daytime and good weather conditions, and this tower mapped in OSM or not. And even if it would have been a thunderstorm and foggy and night time, there wouldn't be any correlation between the accident and OSM (besides that you became aware of the tower and mapped it because of the news). Usually accidents like this happen because of high spirits or someone having an heart attack or similar.

On a sidenote, I think you overestimate the technology to find your smartphone, you would very likely not find it in the ocean or in a river or lake, or in a cave, or after some hours when the battery has drained, or in an area without cellphone or wireless reception, or if it was inside a shielding containment, etc. ;-)

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

Oleksiy Muzalyev
From my modest RPAS pilot experience, I can tell that during a flight planning, while using different sources: maps, satellite images, GPS traces, Wikimedia images, videos, etc. I kind of inadvertently build in my head a 3D model of an area, paying attention to distinctive landmarks, and especially to a point of landing.

In this particular case, I could map the control tower also only after I saw videos, aerial and ground photos, satellite images of the Haßfurt-Schweinfurt airport. After the tower, a major landmark, is on the map, here it is, I have got the 3D model.

Human brain works in 2D, that is why it takes years and years to train a good pilot. The professional term for a flight is: jump. Aircraft does not fly like a bird, it has got limitations of a jump (END - endurance, EET - estimated elapse time, ALT - alternate aerodrome, flight plan, etc.). A pilot error is not always caused by high spirits or illness, sometimes it is a result of objective limitations of human physiology. That is why any flight has got a flight planning phase.

By the way, if a smartphone battery has drained, if "Find My Phone" can’t locate the device, the last known location is displayed on a map.

Best regards,
Oleksiy

On 11.04.18 12:26, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

agreed, I would also believe that the military _also_ might look at OSM (every additional source is always useful), but very likely not for flying aircraft, still, I don't believe there is any correlation whatsoever between a military helicopter touching an airport control tower at daytime and good weather conditions, and this tower mapped in OSM or not. And even if it would have been a thunderstorm and foggy and night time, there wouldn't be any correlation between the accident and OSM (besides that you became aware of the tower and mapped it because of the news). Usually accidents like this happen because of high spirits or someone having an heart attack or similar.

On a sidenote, I think you overestimate the technology to find your smartphone, you would very likely not find it in the ocean or in a river or lake, or in a cave, or after some hours when the battery has drained, or in an area without cellphone or wireless reception, or if it was inside a shielding containment, etc. ;-)

Cheers,
Martin



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