transaction parameters for ATMs

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transaction parameters for ATMs

Nathan Wyand
Hello mappers,

I frequently use OSM to find ATM's near me, but many of these machines place limits on how much can be withdrawn in 1 transaction. This can make it inconvenient and expensive to withdraw money, requiring several transactions. Another issue is that many machines only carry $20 notes, which forces people to withdraw more or less than they actually desire. I am considering two tags for use alongside 'amenity=atm':

min_transaction (the minimum amount of cash that can be withdrawn in one transaction...typically the smallest denomination of notes in the machine)
max _transaction (the maximum amount of cash that can be withdrawn in one transaction)

This is my first time proposing a tag, and I would love to hear your input and and advice. Thank you!

-Nathan

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Re: transaction parameters for ATMs

Joseph Eisenberg
Withdrawals are not the only type of ATM transaction.

Perhaps max_withdrawal would be clearer?
On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 10:57 AM Nathan Wyand <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello mappers,

I frequently use OSM to find ATM's near me, but many of these machines place limits on how much can be withdrawn in 1 transaction. This can make it inconvenient and expensive to withdraw money, requiring several transactions. Another issue is that many machines only carry $20 notes, which forces people to withdraw more or less than they actually desire. I am considering two tags for use alongside 'amenity=atm':

min_transaction (the minimum amount of cash that can be withdrawn in one transaction...typically the smallest denomination of notes in the machine)
max _transaction (the maximum amount of cash that can be withdrawn in one transaction)

This is my first time proposing a tag, and I would love to hear your input and and advice. Thank you!

-Nathan
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Re: transaction parameters for ATMs

Warin
The maximum may also be limited by the card provider. Need some careful words on the proposal to say it is the limit of the ATM provider.


On 14/02/19 13:31, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
Withdrawals are not the only type of ATM transaction.

So use
withdraw_min=*
withdraw_max=*

???

The currency is set by some other tag that I forget now. That needs to be mentioned in the proposal.
As a user .. I have no idea what the limits are. I suspect I may know the lower limit, but not the upper.



Perhaps max_withdrawal would be clearer?
On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 10:57 AM Nathan Wyand <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello mappers,

I frequently use OSM to find ATM's near me, but many of these machines place limits on how much can be withdrawn in 1 transaction. This can make it inconvenient and expensive to withdraw money, requiring several transactions. Another issue is that many machines only carry $20 notes, which forces people to withdraw more or less than they actually desire. I am considering two tags for use alongside 'amenity=atm':

min_transaction (the minimum amount of cash that can be withdrawn in one transaction...typically the smallest denomination of notes in the machine)
max _transaction (the maximum amount of cash that can be withdrawn in one transaction)

This is my first time proposing a tag, and I would love to hear your input and and advice. Thank you!

-Nathan
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Re: transaction parameters for ATMs

Nathan Wyand
So I think I'm on board with using withdraw/withdrawal as opposed to transaction. The reason I formatted it as 'max_???' and 'min_???' is because there are already two tags in use with that ordering.

I would also be sure to clarify that the limits are imposed by the ATM provider and not the card provider.

Putting '$20' in my initial message was just for example, and the value should always be a plain integer.

On 02/13/2019 09:45 PM, Warin wrote:
The maximum may also be limited by the card provider. Need some careful words on the proposal to say it is the limit of the ATM provider.


On 14/02/19 13:31, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
Withdrawals are not the only type of ATM transaction.

So use
withdraw_min=*
withdraw_max=*

???

The currency is set by some other tag that I forget now. That needs to be mentioned in the proposal.
As a user .. I have no idea what the limits are. I suspect I may know the lower limit, but not the upper.



Perhaps max_withdrawal would be clearer?
On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 10:57 AM Nathan Wyand <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello mappers,

I frequently use OSM to find ATM's near me, but many of these machines place limits on how much can be withdrawn in 1 transaction. This can make it inconvenient and expensive to withdraw money, requiring several transactions. Another issue is that many machines only carry $20 notes, which forces people to withdraw more or less than they actually desire. I am considering two tags for use alongside 'amenity=atm':

min_transaction (the minimum amount of cash that can be withdrawn in one transaction...typically the smallest denomination of notes in the machine)
max _transaction (the maximum amount of cash that can be withdrawn in one transaction)

This is my first time proposing a tag, and I would love to hear your input and and advice. Thank you!

-Nathan
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Re: transaction parameters for ATMs

OSMDoudou
In reply to this post by Nathan Wyand
The minimum can also differ.

Some banks allow their young customers to withdraw small amounts, like 5 EUR, whereas adults and even young customers with cards from other banks will not be allowed to withdraw less than 20 EUR.

So, it may create confusion between mappers because what you see as options on the ATM may depend on your card and your affiliation with the bank.

This impairs verifiability on the ground of the information.

On 2/14/19, 03:45 Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
The maximum may also be limited by the card provider. Need some careful words on the proposal to say it is the limit of the ATM provider.


On 14/02/19 13:31, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
Withdrawals are not the only type of ATM transaction.

So use
withdraw_min=*
withdraw_max=*

???

The currency is set by some other tag that I forget now. That needs to be mentioned in the proposal.
As a user .. I have no idea what the limits are. I suspect I may know the lower limit, but not the upper.



Perhaps max_withdrawal would be clearer?
On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 10:57 AM Nathan Wyand <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello mappers,

I frequently use OSM to find ATM's near me, but many of these machines place limits on how much can be withdrawn in 1 transaction. This can make it inconvenient and expensive to withdraw money, requiring several transactions. Another issue is that many machines only carry $20 notes, which forces people to withdraw more or less than they actually desire. I am considering two tags for use alongside 'amenity=atm':

min_transaction (the minimum amount of cash that can be withdrawn in one transaction...typically the smallest denomination of notes in the machine)
max _transaction (the maximum amount of cash that can be withdrawn in one transaction)

This is my first time proposing a tag, and I would love to hear your input and and advice. Thank you!

-Nathan
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Re: transaction parameters for ATMs

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 14. Feb 2019, at 07:29, OSMDoudou <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The minimum can also differ.
>
> Some banks allow their young customers to withdraw small amounts, like 5 EUR, whereas adults and even young customers with cards from other banks will not be allowed to withdraw less than 20 EUR.


the minimum also depends on the notes that are currently available, if the atm has issued all its 20 eur notes you will have 50 as a minimum (in an atm that has no 5 or 10 eur bank notes).

Cheers, Martin
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Re: transaction parameters for ATMs

Warin
On 14/02/19 17:40, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 14. Feb 2019, at 07:29, OSMDoudou <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> The minimum can also differ.
>>
>> Some banks allow their young customers to withdraw small amounts, like 5 EUR, whereas adults and even young customers with cards from other banks will not be allowed to withdraw less than 20 EUR.
>
> the minimum also depends on the notes that are currently available, if the atm has issued all its 20 eur notes you will have 50 as a minimum (in an atm that has no 5 or 10 eur bank notes).
>
The maximum also depends on the amount of money remaining...
asking for 500 and getting 10 * 50 is fine .... getting 20*20 gets very bulky and the machine has then run out of money...


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Re: transaction parameters for ATMs

Colin Smale
In reply to this post by OSMDoudou

Tagging min and max withdrawals on the ATM is asking for confusion. The normal limits are set by the card issuer, and I can see many people mistakenly putting their personal card limits into these tags on the ATM.

More relevant here would be the denomination mix. ATMs have a fixed number of canisters (maybe 2/3/4), each of which can hold a single type of note. Which denominations are loaded depends on historical usage patterns. Stocking low denomination notes might be good for user convenience, but bad for the possibility of running out of money in a busy location. Knowing the normal mix for a particular ATM, in particular the smallest denomination, is useful for knowing which amounts can be dispensed, and which not.

 

So instead of min_withdrawal on the ATM, I would suggest min_denomination.

In the case of multi-currency ATMs there will need to be a currency-specific variant, like min_denomination:EUR=20

Problem is, it will probably require data from multiple transactions from small to large to work out the mix and we need to keep mappers merging the data from their experience, and not overwriting the valid data from a previous ATM user, while recognising that the denomination mix can change, even according to the days of the week (weekends might be different to weekdays in city centres).

On 2019-02-14 07:29, OSMDoudou wrote:

The minimum can also differ.

Some banks allow their young customers to withdraw small amounts, like 5 EUR, whereas adults and even young customers with cards from other banks will not be allowed to withdraw less than 20 EUR.

So, it may create confusion between mappers because what you see as options on the ATM may depend on your card and your affiliation with the bank.

This impairs verifiability on the ground of the information.
On 2/14/19, 03:45 Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
The maximum may also be limited by the card provider. Need some careful words on the proposal to say it is the limit of the ATM provider.


On 14/02/19 13:31, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
Withdrawals are not the only type of ATM transaction.

So use
withdraw_min=*
withdraw_max=*

???

The currency is set by some other tag that I forget now. That needs to be mentioned in the proposal.
As a user .. I have no idea what the limits are. I suspect I may know the lower limit, but not the upper.



Perhaps max_withdrawal would be clearer?
On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 10:57 AM Nathan Wyand <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello mappers,

I frequently use OSM to find ATM's near me, but many of these machines place limits on how much can be withdrawn in 1 transaction. This can make it inconvenient and expensive to withdraw money, requiring several transactions. Another issue is that many machines only carry $20 notes, which forces people to withdraw more or less than they actually desire. I am considering two tags for use alongside 'amenity=atm':

min_transaction (the minimum amount of cash that can be withdrawn in one transaction...typically the smallest denomination of notes in the machine)
max _transaction (the maximum amount of cash that can be withdrawn in one transaction)

This is my first time proposing a tag, and I would love to hear your input and and advice. Thank you!

-Nathan
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Re: transaction parameters for ATMs

dieterdreist


Am Do., 14. Feb. 2019 um 08:19 Uhr schrieb Colin Smale <[hidden email]>:

Tagging min and max withdrawals on the ATM is asking for confusion. The normal limits are set by the card issuer,


by the network. Most (?) cards nowadays can use several different networks, some atms ask which one you want to use.

Cheers,
Martin
 

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Re: transaction parameters for ATMs

Joseph Eisenberg
I’m surprised to hear this about ATMs in Europe.

In Southeast Asia and in the USA, usually the ATM will only allow a certain max withdrawal. It’s also uncommon to have more than one denomination (though some do have 2 types).

Perhaps this tag can’t be used in all countries, but it could still be useful in places where the ATM itself has a max withdrawal limit.
On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 4:29 PM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


Am Do., 14. Feb. 2019 um 08:19 Uhr schrieb Colin Smale <[hidden email]>:

Tagging min and max withdrawals on the ATM is asking for confusion. The normal limits are set by the card issuer,


by the network. Most (?) cards nowadays can use several different networks, some atms ask which one you want to use.

Cheers,
Martin
 
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Re: transaction parameters for ATMs

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by Colin Smale
Hi,

On 14.02.19 08:17, Colin Smale wrote:
> Problem is, it will probably require data from multiple transactions
> from small to large to work out the mix

That's what I see as an issue too. Something that is only verifiable if
you are a customer and can make a large number of withdrawals to test,
stretches our concept of verifiable. If I don't get a specific
denomination from the machine, or if I am set an upper limit for my
withdrawal, will another person experience the same on the next day,
when they have more money on their account and the machine has been
refilled in the mean time?

I'd say we stick to stuff that is explicitly signposted on the machine -
if the machine says what the limit is or what the network is or what
currencies it has, then map that, but don't map data gathered by
interacting with the machine.

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: transaction parameters for ATMs

Colin Smale
In reply to this post by dieterdreist

On 2019-02-14 08:28, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

 

Am Do., 14. Feb. 2019 um 08:19 Uhr schrieb Colin Smale <[hidden email]>:

Tagging min and max withdrawals on the ATM is asking for confusion. The normal limits are set by the card issuer,

 
by the network. Most (?) cards nowadays can use several different networks, some atms ask which one you want to use.
 
The network may have limits for fraud management purposes, but normally it's the card issuer (bank) who sets the limits. They could actually be set at the level of the individual card. Some issuers might allow you to choose your own limits, within certain boundaries, so you can manage your own exposure.
 
However if the ATM cannot connect to the card issuer for whatever reason, stand-in authorisation and limits may kick in at various levels, or the transaction might be rejected anyway.
 
Where you are offered a choice of accounts/networks to use, that information is held on the card itself (in the chip). The chip can be programmed with multiple "applications" and the terminal is free to offer a choice where it is able to process more than one.
 

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Re: transaction parameters for ATMs

Colin Smale
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg

On 2019-02-14 08:35, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

I'm surprised to hear this about ATMs in Europe.

In Southeast Asia and in the USA, usually the ATM will only allow a certain max withdrawal. It's also uncommon to have more than one denomination (though some do have 2 types).

Perhaps this tag can't be used in all countries, but it could still be useful in places where the ATM itself has a max withdrawal limit.

The ATM itself does have a maximum withdrawal amount. Apart from any financial limits it will have a limit on the number of notes to be issued in a single withdrawal (typically 40), as there are mechanical limitations within the device. The maximum amount is therefore determined by the cassette mix and should not be expressed as a currency amount.
 

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Re: transaction parameters for ATMs

seirra blake
In reply to this post by Colin Smale

some providers already make it publicly available knowledge. for example in the UK link ATM has an app, and you can use it to find nearby ATMs. most of the things it tells you are pretty standard, but some things that may need new tags are pin management services, audio assistance and £5 notes (because otherwise you're limited to denominations of 10). I was thinking with these tags included, link ATM may feel encouraged to import their data and maintain it on OSM allowing them to save costs on their end and have a more detailed map. when I tried proposing minimum denominations before on here though it got shot down very fast.

On 2/14/19 7:17 AM, Colin Smale wrote:

Tagging min and max withdrawals on the ATM is asking for confusion. The normal limits are set by the card issuer, and I can see many people mistakenly putting their personal card limits into these tags on the ATM.

More relevant here would be the denomination mix. ATMs have a fixed number of canisters (maybe 2/3/4), each of which can hold a single type of note. Which denominations are loaded depends on historical usage patterns. Stocking low denomination notes might be good for user convenience, but bad for the possibility of running out of money in a busy location. Knowing the normal mix for a particular ATM, in particular the smallest denomination, is useful for knowing which amounts can be dispensed, and which not.

 

So instead of min_withdrawal on the ATM, I would suggest min_denomination.

In the case of multi-currency ATMs there will need to be a currency-specific variant, like min_denomination:EUR=20

Problem is, it will probably require data from multiple transactions from small to large to work out the mix and we need to keep mappers merging the data from their experience, and not overwriting the valid data from a previous ATM user, while recognising that the denomination mix can change, even according to the days of the week (weekends might be different to weekdays in city centres).

On 2019-02-14 07:29, OSMDoudou wrote:

The minimum can also differ.

Some banks allow their young customers to withdraw small amounts, like 5 EUR, whereas adults and even young customers with cards from other banks will not be allowed to withdraw less than 20 EUR.

So, it may create confusion between mappers because what you see as options on the ATM may depend on your card and your affiliation with the bank.

This impairs verifiability on the ground of the information.
On 2/14/19, 03:45 Warin [hidden email] wrote:
The maximum may also be limited by the card provider. Need some careful words on the proposal to say it is the limit of the ATM provider.


On 14/02/19 13:31, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
Withdrawals are not the only type of ATM transaction.

So use
withdraw_min=*
withdraw_max=*

???

The currency is set by some other tag that I forget now. That needs to be mentioned in the proposal.
As a user .. I have no idea what the limits are. I suspect I may know the lower limit, but not the upper.



Perhaps max_withdrawal would be clearer?
On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 10:57 AM Nathan Wyand <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello mappers,

I frequently use OSM to find ATM's near me, but many of these machines place limits on how much can be withdrawn in 1 transaction. This can make it inconvenient and expensive to withdraw money, requiring several transactions. Another issue is that many machines only carry $20 notes, which forces people to withdraw more or less than they actually desire. I am considering two tags for use alongside 'amenity=atm':

min_transaction (the minimum amount of cash that can be withdrawn in one transaction...typically the smallest denomination of notes in the machine)
max _transaction (the maximum amount of cash that can be withdrawn in one transaction)

This is my first time proposing a tag, and I would love to hear your input and and advice. Thank you!

-Nathan
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Re: transaction parameters for ATMs

Joseph Eisenberg
Here in Indonesia the ATMs are universally limited to dispensing no more than 25 bills, and they only offer one type. So you can get 2,500,000 in one withdrawal if they dispense 100,000 Rupiah bills, or 1250000 if they dispense 50k bills.

The size of bill dispensed is often shown on a sticker (at least for newer ATMs)

(100,000 rupiah converts to about $7 US)
On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 5:08 PM seirra blake <[hidden email]> wrote:

some providers already make it publicly available knowledge. for example in the UK link ATM has an app, and you can use it to find nearby ATMs. most of the things it tells you are pretty standard, but some things that may need new tags are pin management services, audio assistance and £5 notes (because otherwise you're limited to denominations of 10). I was thinking with these tags included, link ATM may feel encouraged to import their data and maintain it on OSM allowing them to save costs on their end and have a more detailed map. when I tried proposing minimum denominations before on here though it got shot down very fast.

On 2/14/19 7:17 AM, Colin Smale wrote:

Tagging min and max withdrawals on the ATM is asking for confusion. The normal limits are set by the card issuer, and I can see many people mistakenly putting their personal card limits into these tags on the ATM.

More relevant here would be the denomination mix. ATMs have a fixed number of canisters (maybe 2/3/4), each of which can hold a single type of note. Which denominations are loaded depends on historical usage patterns. Stocking low denomination notes might be good for user convenience, but bad for the possibility of running out of money in a busy location. Knowing the normal mix for a particular ATM, in particular the smallest denomination, is useful for knowing which amounts can be dispensed, and which not.

 

So instead of min_withdrawal on the ATM, I would suggest min_denomination.

In the case of multi-currency ATMs there will need to be a currency-specific variant, like min_denomination:EUR=20

Problem is, it will probably require data from multiple transactions from small to large to work out the mix and we need to keep mappers merging the data from their experience, and not overwriting the valid data from a previous ATM user, while recognising that the denomination mix can change, even according to the days of the week (weekends might be different to weekdays in city centres).

On 2019-02-14 07:29, OSMDoudou wrote:

The minimum can also differ.

Some banks allow their young customers to withdraw small amounts, like 5 EUR, whereas adults and even young customers with cards from other banks will not be allowed to withdraw less than 20 EUR.

So, it may create confusion between mappers because what you see as options on the ATM may depend on your card and your affiliation with the bank.

This impairs verifiability on the ground of the information.
On 2/14/19, 03:45 Warin [hidden email] wrote:
The maximum may also be limited by the card provider. Need some careful words on the proposal to say it is the limit of the ATM provider.


On 14/02/19 13:31, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
Withdrawals are not the only type of ATM transaction.

So use
withdraw_min=*
withdraw_max=*

???

The currency is set by some other tag that I forget now. That needs to be mentioned in the proposal.
As a user .. I have no idea what the limits are. I suspect I may know the lower limit, but not the upper.



Perhaps max_withdrawal would be clearer?
On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 10:57 AM Nathan Wyand <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello mappers,

I frequently use OSM to find ATM's near me, but many of these machines place limits on how much can be withdrawn in 1 transaction. This can make it inconvenient and expensive to withdraw money, requiring several transactions. Another issue is that many machines only carry $20 notes, which forces people to withdraw more or less than they actually desire. I am considering two tags for use alongside 'amenity=atm':

min_transaction (the minimum amount of cash that can be withdrawn in one transaction...typically the smallest denomination of notes in the machine)
max _transaction (the maximum amount of cash that can be withdrawn in one transaction)

This is my first time proposing a tag, and I would love to hear your input and and advice. Thank you!

-Nathan
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Re: transaction parameters for ATMs

<0174
Hi,

Frederik Ramm wrote:
I'd say we stick to stuff that is explicitly signposted on the machine -
if the machine says what the limit is or what the network is or what
currencies it has, then map that, but don't map data gathered by
interacting with the machine.

one use case:

I was recently in Nepal and the ATMs there have very low withdrawal limit (c. 10,000 to 25,000 NPR, that is about 200 €) and always a fee. Withdrawing larger sums of money i.e. for several weeks of trekking can get quite expensive if one chooses an ATM with low limit.
There are many ATMs in cities and towns, but since the limit is not written on the ATM, the only was to find the good ones is to use them (and to risk losing your card).

That's one reason why I would suggest to not dismiss tagging with info taken from interacting with the ATM. I suppose sometimes the max. amount can differ based on the card issuer, but I believe we should reflect such cases in the tagging scheme. Sometimes there is no other way and this information could help a lot.

<0174


čt 14. 2. 2019 v 12:52 odesílatel Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> napsal:
Here in Indonesia the ATMs are universally limited to dispensing no more than 25 bills, and they only offer one type. So you can get 2,500,000 in one withdrawal if they dispense 100,000 Rupiah bills, or 1250000 if they dispense 50k bills.

The size of bill dispensed is often shown on a sticker (at least for newer ATMs)

(100,000 rupiah converts to about $7 US)
On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 5:08 PM seirra blake <[hidden email]> wrote:

some providers already make it publicly available knowledge. for example in the UK link ATM has an app, and you can use it to find nearby ATMs. most of the things it tells you are pretty standard, but some things that may need new tags are pin management services, audio assistance and £5 notes (because otherwise you're limited to denominations of 10). I was thinking with these tags included, link ATM may feel encouraged to import their data and maintain it on OSM allowing them to save costs on their end and have a more detailed map. when I tried proposing minimum denominations before on here though it got shot down very fast.

On 2/14/19 7:17 AM, Colin Smale wrote:

Tagging min and max withdrawals on the ATM is asking for confusion. The normal limits are set by the card issuer, and I can see many people mistakenly putting their personal card limits into these tags on the ATM.

More relevant here would be the denomination mix. ATMs have a fixed number of canisters (maybe 2/3/4), each of which can hold a single type of note. Which denominations are loaded depends on historical usage patterns. Stocking low denomination notes might be good for user convenience, but bad for the possibility of running out of money in a busy location. Knowing the normal mix for a particular ATM, in particular the smallest denomination, is useful for knowing which amounts can be dispensed, and which not.

 

So instead of min_withdrawal on the ATM, I would suggest min_denomination.

In the case of multi-currency ATMs there will need to be a currency-specific variant, like min_denomination:EUR=20

Problem is, it will probably require data from multiple transactions from small to large to work out the mix and we need to keep mappers merging the data from their experience, and not overwriting the valid data from a previous ATM user, while recognising that the denomination mix can change, even according to the days of the week (weekends might be different to weekdays in city centres).

On 2019-02-14 07:29, OSMDoudou wrote:

The minimum can also differ.

Some banks allow their young customers to withdraw small amounts, like 5 EUR, whereas adults and even young customers with cards from other banks will not be allowed to withdraw less than 20 EUR.

So, it may create confusion between mappers because what you see as options on the ATM may depend on your card and your affiliation with the bank.

This impairs verifiability on the ground of the information.
On 2/14/19, 03:45 Warin [hidden email] wrote:
The maximum may also be limited by the card provider. Need some careful words on the proposal to say it is the limit of the ATM provider.


On 14/02/19 13:31, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
Withdrawals are not the only type of ATM transaction.

So use
withdraw_min=*
withdraw_max=*

???

The currency is set by some other tag that I forget now. That needs to be mentioned in the proposal.
As a user .. I have no idea what the limits are. I suspect I may know the lower limit, but not the upper.



Perhaps max_withdrawal would be clearer?
On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 10:57 AM Nathan Wyand <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello mappers,

I frequently use OSM to find ATM's near me, but many of these machines place limits on how much can be withdrawn in 1 transaction. This can make it inconvenient and expensive to withdraw money, requiring several transactions. Another issue is that many machines only carry $20 notes, which forces people to withdraw more or less than they actually desire. I am considering two tags for use alongside 'amenity=atm':

min_transaction (the minimum amount of cash that can be withdrawn in one transaction...typically the smallest denomination of notes in the machine)
max _transaction (the maximum amount of cash that can be withdrawn in one transaction)

This is my first time proposing a tag, and I would love to hear your input and and advice. Thank you!

-Nathan
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Re: transaction parameters for ATMs

Marc Gemis
AFAIK, the limit in Belgium depends on the card. You can within
certain limits set by the issuer, change your limit. Furthermore,
there is a daily and weekly limit as well (see e.g.
https://www.kbc.be/particulieren/nl/product/betalen/betaalkaarten/bankkaarten/bankkaart.html
in Dutch).
Any tagging proposal should make it very clear that it is the limit of
the ATM. A tag that should not be used in Belgium.

Regarding fees, it depends on your account, the ATM you use, the brand
of the bank and the number of times you have used ATM's in a certain
period.

Banks and shops prefer that you pay with your debit or credit card in
the shop I think, that's why they make it more expensive to withdraw
money from an ATM.
More and more shops also offer payment via Smart Phones.

m.

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 1:27 PM <0174 <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> Frederik Ramm wrote:
> I'd say we stick to stuff that is explicitly signposted on the machine -
> if the machine says what the limit is or what the network is or what
> currencies it has, then map that, but don't map data gathered by
> interacting with the machine.
>
> one use case:
>
> I was recently in Nepal and the ATMs there have very low withdrawal limit (c. 10,000 to 25,000 NPR, that is about 200 €) and always a fee. Withdrawing larger sums of money i.e. for several weeks of trekking can get quite expensive if one chooses an ATM with low limit.
> There are many ATMs in cities and towns, but since the limit is not written on the ATM, the only was to find the good ones is to use them (and to risk losing your card).
>
> That's one reason why I would suggest to not dismiss tagging with info taken from interacting with the ATM. I suppose sometimes the max. amount can differ based on the card issuer, but I believe we should reflect such cases in the tagging scheme. Sometimes there is no other way and this information could help a lot.
>
> <0174
>
>
> čt 14. 2. 2019 v 12:52 odesílatel Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> napsal:
>>
>> Here in Indonesia the ATMs are universally limited to dispensing no more than 25 bills, and they only offer one type. So you can get 2,500,000 in one withdrawal if they dispense 100,000 Rupiah bills, or 1250000 if they dispense 50k bills.
>>
>> The size of bill dispensed is often shown on a sticker (at least for newer ATMs)
>>
>> (100,000 rupiah converts to about $7 US)
>> On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 5:08 PM seirra blake <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> some providers already make it publicly available knowledge. for example in the UK link ATM has an app, and you can use it to find nearby ATMs. most of the things it tells you are pretty standard, but some things that may need new tags are pin management services, audio assistance and £5 notes (because otherwise you're limited to denominations of 10). I was thinking with these tags included, link ATM may feel encouraged to import their data and maintain it on OSM allowing them to save costs on their end and have a more detailed map. when I tried proposing minimum denominations before on here though it got shot down very fast.
>>>
>>> On 2/14/19 7:17 AM, Colin Smale wrote:
>>>
>>> Tagging min and max withdrawals on the ATM is asking for confusion. The normal limits are set by the card issuer, and I can see many people mistakenly putting their personal card limits into these tags on the ATM.
>>>
>>> More relevant here would be the denomination mix. ATMs have a fixed number of canisters (maybe 2/3/4), each of which can hold a single type of note. Which denominations are loaded depends on historical usage patterns. Stocking low denomination notes might be good for user convenience, but bad for the possibility of running out of money in a busy location. Knowing the normal mix for a particular ATM, in particular the smallest denomination, is useful for knowing which amounts can be dispensed, and which not.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So instead of min_withdrawal on the ATM, I would suggest min_denomination.
>>>
>>> In the case of multi-currency ATMs there will need to be a currency-specific variant, like min_denomination:EUR=20
>>>
>>> Problem is, it will probably require data from multiple transactions from small to large to work out the mix and we need to keep mappers merging the data from their experience, and not overwriting the valid data from a previous ATM user, while recognising that the denomination mix can change, even according to the days of the week (weekends might be different to weekdays in city centres).
>>>
>>> On 2019-02-14 07:29, OSMDoudou wrote:
>>>
>>> The minimum can also differ.
>>>
>>> Some banks allow their young customers to withdraw small amounts, like 5 EUR, whereas adults and even young customers with cards from other banks will not be allowed to withdraw less than 20 EUR.
>>>
>>> So, it may create confusion between mappers because what you see as options on the ATM may depend on your card and your affiliation with the bank.
>>>
>>> This impairs verifiability on the ground of the information.
>>> On 2/14/19, 03:45 Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The maximum may also be limited by the card provider. Need some careful words on the proposal to say it is the limit of the ATM provider.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 14/02/19 13:31, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Withdrawals are not the only type of ATM transaction.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So use
>>>> withdraw_min=*
>>>> withdraw_max=*
>>>>
>>>> ???
>>>>
>>>> The currency is set by some other tag that I forget now. That needs to be mentioned in the proposal.
>>>> As a user .. I have no idea what the limits are. I suspect I may know the lower limit, but not the upper.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps max_withdrawal would be clearer?
>>>> On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 10:57 AM Nathan Wyand <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello mappers,
>>>>>
>>>>> I frequently use OSM to find ATM's near me, but many of these machines place limits on how much can be withdrawn in 1 transaction. This can make it inconvenient and expensive to withdraw money, requiring several transactions. Another issue is that many machines only carry $20 notes, which forces people to withdraw more or less than they actually desire. I am considering two tags for use alongside 'amenity=atm':
>>>>>
>>>>> min_transaction (the minimum amount of cash that can be withdrawn in one transaction...typically the smallest denomination of notes in the machine)
>>>>> max _transaction (the maximum amount of cash that can be withdrawn in one transaction)
>>>>>
>>>>> This is my first time proposing a tag, and I would love to hear your input and and advice. Thank you!
>>>>>
>>>>> -Nathan
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Tagging mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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Re: transaction parameters for ATMs

Sergio Manzi

I agree.

In Italy too there are so many different limits depending on "who you are" (how fat your account is...), in which bank you have your account and from which bank's ATM you are whitdrawning, per-account daily/monthly limits, etc.

And I really can't imagine how one could know the ATM's absolute maximum whitdrawal limit (unless you are a bank employee, maybe)...

I see it hardly usable here...

Sergio


On 2019-02-25 11:44, Marc Gemis wrote:
Any tagging proposal should make it very clear that it is the limit of
the ATM. A tag that should not be used in Belgium.

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