wheelchair = hiking

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wheelchair = hiking

Andreas Lattmann-2
Hi everyone,
I don't know if it's the right mailing list.
I would like to propose a new tag (if it is not already there).  The new tag is wheelchair = hiking because in Italy many associations are creating mountain trails for disabled people.  
It would be nice to be able to map these paths.  
Thank you

Andreas Lattmann

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Re: wheelchair = hiking

Mateusz Konieczny-3
18 Jun 2019, 16:28 by [hidden email]:
Hi everyone,
I don't know if it's the right mailing list.
It is the correct one for discussing tagging, especially new tags! Welcome!
I would like to propose a new tag (if it is not already there). The new tag is wheelchair = hiking because in Italy many associations are creating mountain trails for disabled people.
It would be nice to be able to map these paths.
Where it would be applied? To paths or to route relations?


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Re: wheelchair = hiking

marc marc
In reply to this post by Andreas Lattmann-2
Le 18.06.19 à 16:28, Andreas Lattmann a écrit :
>   mountain trails for disabled people

map the mountain trails as usual (way and/or relation)
and add wheelchair=yes on it (or wheelchair=limited
if ppl need help to use it)
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Re: wheelchair = hiking

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Andreas Lattmann-2
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 at 15:32, Andreas Lattmann <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don't know if it's the right mailing list.

It is.

I would like to propose a new tag (if it is not already there).  The new tag is wheelchair = hiking because in Italy many associations are creating mountain trails for disabled people. 
It would be nice to be able to map these paths. 

Is there any reason not to use the existing wheelchair=yes|no|limited|designated tags?  If you add
wheelchair=yes to a hiking trail it is implicit that it is for hiking in a wheelchair.   A problem with
adding wheelchair=hiking is that people may then misapply it (because it would be available in
editor drop-downs) to other ways where wheelchair=yes ought to be used.

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Re: wheelchair = hiking

Peter Elderson
In reply to this post by marc marc
+1

Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 18 jun. 2019 om 16:38 heeft marc marc <[hidden email]> het volgende geschreven:
>
>> Le 18.06.19 à 16:28, Andreas Lattmann a écrit :
>>  mountain trails for disabled people
>
> map the mountain trails as usual (way and/or relation)
> and add wheelchair=yes on it (or wheelchair=limited
> if ppl need help to use it)
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: wheelchair = hiking

Andy Townsend
In reply to this post by Andreas Lattmann-2
On 18/06/2019 15:28, Andreas Lattmann wrote:
> I would like to propose a new tag (if it is not already there).  The new tag is wheelchair = hiking because in Italy many associations are creating mountain trails for disabled people.
> It would be nice to be able to map these paths.

Would existing tags such as
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:smoothness and perhaps
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:tracktype also be useful here?

That would allow a wide range of different trail conditions to be be
recorded, not just a simple binary "yes/no".  The problem with a simple
yes or no is that wheelchairs come in all shapes and sizes (especially
those designed to operate outside an urban environment) and some are
likely to be able to handle what would definitely "wheelchair=no" for
most with ease.

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: wheelchair = hiking

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by Paul Allen
This is a good point and should be the preferred way. For your purpose you should use

highway=path
wheelchair=designated

.

This tells mappers and other users of OSM data that the highway is a path https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpath and designated for wheelchair users https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:wheelchair

Cheerio

Sören alias Valor Naram


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking
From: Paul Allen
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
CC:


On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 at 15:32, Andreas Lattmann <[hidden email]> wrote:

Is there any reason not to use the existing wheelchair=yes|no|limited|designated tags?  If you add
wheelchair=yes to a hiking trail it is implicit that it is for hiking in a wheelchair.   A problem with
adding wheelchair=hiking is that people may then misapply it (because it would be available in
editor drop-downs) to other ways where wheelchair=yes ought to be used.

--
Paul


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Re: wheelchair = hiking

Nick Bolten
In reply to this post by Andreas Lattmann-2
I would suggest developing a new tag that means, "this authority has designated this path as accessible by wheelchair users", as that's the information you actually possess and can communicate. A description of on-the-ground infrastructure would also be appropriate, though I suspect there might not be good tags for doing this on trails. Example: I'm not sure if anyone has evaluated whether different users consistently tag "smoothness" the same way (a potential issue with data maintenance / accuracy) nor whether the tag captures the information wheelchair users need to know.

wheelchair=yes is usually an inappropriate tag for most situations because wheelchair users tend to disagree about what paths are accessible. Factors such as the chair they use, experience with their chair, athleticism, and comfort with risk-taking all factor into it, so a one-size-fits-all approach is tricky. You will find wheelchair users that are happy to ignore an 8 cm raised curb and others who are uncomfortable with inclines flatter than the legal limits.

I just reviewed how wheelchair=designated is documented. In terms of the actual words in the tag, I initially thought this would be a reasonable tag (someone has designated this path as wheelchair accessible!), but the wiki makes me think it shouldn't be used here. The wiki states that this tag is rarely used and that it implies specific infrastructure has been built to support wheelchair users, which might not be the case for a path that's been declared accessible by a particular authority.

Best,

Nick

On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 7:32 AM Andreas Lattmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I don't know if it's the right mailing list.
I would like to propose a new tag (if it is not already there).  The new tag is wheelchair = hiking because in Italy many associations are creating mountain trails for disabled people. 
It would be nice to be able to map these paths. 
Thank you

Andreas Lattmann

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Re: wheelchair = hiking

Andreas Lattmann-2
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
>Where it would be applied? To paths or to route relations?

would be included in the relations

I was thinking about this new tag because often particular wheelchairs are used, for example: [1] [2]

So if I insert wheelchair = yes what other tag can I use to make it clear that special equipment is needed?


[1] http://www.dappertutto.org/files/montagna_natura1.jpg

[2] https://www.disabili.com/images/stories/disabiliabili/Extreme_X8/carrozzina_elettronica_per_sabbia.jpg
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Re: wheelchair = hiking

voschix
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list


highway=path
wheelchair=designated
This would only be correct if this path is mainly or exclusively for wheelchair users.
I presume thet the majority of hiking routes for wheelchair users do not exclude other users, they are likely to be shared with pedestrians, possibly also cyclists.

I guess the "suitable for wheelchair" property of a given concatenation of highways requires that all its components have wheelchair=yes or wheelchair=full tags.
If we are talking about a signed route for wheelchair users, than the tagging could go on the route, even though my gut feeling is that it shold in any case co on every member highway of the route

This tells mappers and other users of OSM data that the highway is a path https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpath and designated for wheelchair users https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:wheelchair
yes



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Re: wheelchair = hiking

Markus-5
In reply to this post by Andreas Lattmann-2
Hi!

On Tue, 18 Jun 2019, 16:32 Andreas Lattmann, <[hidden email]> wrote:
I would like to propose a new tag (if it is not already there).  The new tag is wheelchair = hiking because in Italy many associations are creating mountain trails for disabled people. 
It would be nice to be able to map these paths.

Are these signed wheelchair routes? If so, i would create a type=route + route=wheelchair relation. According to Taginfo [1], this tag is in use on 60 relations. Although this tag hasn't been documented, i guess that's what it's been used for. Additionally, i would tag the paths wheelchair=designated.

If there are only paths, but no routes, tagging the paths wheelchair=designated should suffice. 


Regards

Markus

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Re: wheelchair = hiking

Markus-5
In reply to this post by Andreas Lattmann-2
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019, 18:42 Andreas Lattmann, <[hidden email]> wrote:
would be included in the relations

I was thinking about this new tag because often particular wheelchairs are used, for example: [1] [2]

So if I insert wheelchair = yes what other tag can I use to make it clear that special equipment is needed?


[1] http://www.dappertutto.org/files/montagna_natura1.jpg

[2] https://www.disabili.com/images/stories/disabiliabili/Extreme_X8/carrozzina_elettronica_per_sabbia.jpg

If special wheelchairs are needed, i wouldn't tag the paths wheelchair=yes. IMO wheelchair=yes means accessible for most basic wheelchairs. We may need a tag for paths accessible for mountain or off-road wheelchairs.


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Re: wheelchair = hiking

Markus-5
In reply to this post by voschix
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019, 18:44 Volker Schmidt, <[hidden email]> wrote:
highway=path
wheelchair=designated
This would only be correct if this path is mainly or exclusively for wheelchair users.
I presume thet the majority of hiking routes for wheelchair users do not exclude other users, they are likely to be shared with pedestrians, possibly also cyclists.

*=designated may ban other means of transport (depending on the jurisdiction) when used with legal access keys. But as i understand it, the wheelchair key isn't a *legal* access key like vehicle, bicycle or foot, but indicates *possible* access. Therefore, wheelchair=designates shouldn't be a problem, but i have to admit that it's imperfect.

Thus, contrary to what i wrote before, for wheelchair routes, route=wheelchair on the relation and wheelchair=yes on the paths seems better.

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Re: wheelchair = hiking

Andreas Lattmann-2
In reply to this post by Markus-5
>IMO wheelchair=yes means accessible for most basic wheelchairs.

For the paths that are accessible with normal wheelchairs, I have no doubt: I would tag them with wheelchair = yes, it is on the paths that need special wheelchairs (4x4, with the help of people etc.) that I don't know how to tag them.
This is why I was evaluating a new tag to describe these new paths.

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Re: wheelchair = hiking

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Paul Allen


sent from a phone

Il giorno 18 giu 2019, alle ore 16:40, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> ha scritto:

If you add
wheelchair=yes to a hiking trail it is implicit that it is for hiking in a wheelchair.


we could use wheelchair=designated 

it seems the best choice from those 
values with significant usage.

if we would use “yes” we could not distinguish those which are promoted from those that are simply suitable ;-)

Cheers, Martin 

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Re: wheelchair = hiking

Markus-5
In reply to this post by Andreas Lattmann-2
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019, 19:36 Andreas Lattmann, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>IMO wheelchair=yes means accessible for most basic wheelchairs.

For the paths that are accessible with normal wheelchairs, I have no doubt: I would tag them with wheelchair = yes, it is on the paths that need special wheelchairs (4x4, with the help of people etc.) that I don't know how to tag them.
This is why I was evaluating a new tag to describe these new paths.

If you want to use a new tag for special wheelchairs, i think the wheelchair type should rather be a key than a value, that is, <wheelchair_type>=yes/no (or wheelchair:<type>=yes/no) instead of wheelchair=<wheelchair_type>. Unfortunately, I don't know about special wheelchair types to give you any advice on how to name the tags.

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Re: wheelchair = hiking

marc marc
Le 18.06.19 à 22:07, Markus a écrit :
> If you want to use a new tag for special wheelchairs

the example has little to do with wheelchairs, a paraplegic,
a blind person, a patient could just as easily go for a walk
the itinerary seems to describe + the activity of an association
or group of people. I have trouble imagining which tag could be used,
it probably has more its place in umap, like any other event
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Re: wheelchair = hiking

Nick Bolten
In reply to this post by Markus-5
> IMO wheelchair=yes means accessible for most basic wheelchairs.

Yes, but it's something that is frequently difficult to estimate. In interviews with wheelchair users, many will give strong opinions about what they personally think is accessible and their responses vary more than most people expect. A few have even shared strong opinions about what they believe all/most wheelchair users care about, even though a large proportion of wheelchair users would actually disagree (for example, avoiding curbs).

It might be helpful to break this down into examples comparing what information the mapper has vs. what information the tag contains. 

# In the case suggested by Andreas:

The mapper knows: that hiking associations have been creating hiking paths in Italy that are deemed wheelchair-accessible by some metric. I don't know what the metric is, but the effort sounds great!
The tag confers: that most wheelchair users can use that path.
The disconnects:
- The mapper does not actually know that the path is wheelchair-accessible, they are trusting an authority to make that (complex) determination.
- That authority is not stated anywhere in the tag values so we cannot go back and reevaluate the tagging based on a new understanding of their metrics for wheelchair accessibility.
- It is challenging to verify wheelchair=yes on the ground. Except in the most simple cases (flat, wide, textured concrete), you'd need some kind of evaluation form based on a study on wheelchair users and statistics on their use of different paths/barriers.
- How would we ever update this with wheelchair=no based on a ground survey? Is there a metric for how many wheelchair users can't use the path and who is collecting that data?

# In a case where an individual is actually at one of the trails and can do a ground survey:

The mapper knows: what the ground conditions are along the trail. Potentially, some of the information to look out for: steepness, cross slopes, rugged terrain, narrow paths, sudden uplifts, stairs, bollards/posts, surface conditions.
The tag confers: an assessment that most wheelchair users can use that path.
The disconnects:
- The mapper is likely not doing a thorough enough survey to actually know what percentage of wheelchair users can use it.
- If another mapper uses their own, subjective idea of what counts as wheelchair-accessible, they could easily disagree with the assessment and prefer wheelchair=no. Who is right?

If the map simply states wheelchair=yes, a data consumer will not know by which process the path was evaluated and any guess will end up being wrong in one of the examples list above.

To address this situation, I recommend keeping the distance between what the mapper knows and what the tag implies as small as possible. In this case, what the mappers knows is that an authority (the hiking association) is labeling the path as wheelchair-friendly, so we need a tag that communicates, at most, that information. For example: wheelchair:authorized=<name of hiking group>.

Best,

Nick

On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 10:01 AM Markus <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019, 18:42 Andreas Lattmann, <[hidden email]> wrote:
would be included in the relations

I was thinking about this new tag because often particular wheelchairs are used, for example: [1] [2]

So if I insert wheelchair = yes what other tag can I use to make it clear that special equipment is needed?


[1] http://www.dappertutto.org/files/montagna_natura1.jpg

[2] https://www.disabili.com/images/stories/disabiliabili/Extreme_X8/carrozzina_elettronica_per_sabbia.jpg

If special wheelchairs are needed, i wouldn't tag the paths wheelchair=yes. IMO wheelchair=yes means accessible for most basic wheelchairs. We may need a tag for paths accessible for mountain or off-road wheelchairs.

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Re: wheelchair = hiking

Andreas Lattmann-2
In reply to this post by marc marc
>the example has little to do with wheelchairs, a paraplegic,
>a blind person, a patient could just as easily go for a walk

I understand that I did not explain the situation well.  I have seen that recently there have been activities that rent 4x4 wheelchairs at the beginning of the journey. They also provide the guards: helmet, etc.  they also advertise that the route can be done independently because they provide assistance.  These are routes that are not passable with normal wheelchairs, but 4x4 electric wheelchairs.  So, from how they advertise, a disabled person can go to the beginning of the journey, park the car, rent a 4x4 wheelchair with body protection and take the excursion.  I know that in Italy it is still in its infancy, and therefore few paths have the 4x4 wheelchair renter and therefore there are associations that offer the service of accompanying disabled people to the mountains (either with electric wheelchairs or by hand).  So they are not only paths made by associations but paths designed by municipalities, regions, etc.  There are also paths for blind people (I don't know how to tag them) made by the Lombardy region.  On Sunday I will go on the path named "Sentiero Sensoriale" dedicated to blind people.  From my previous excursion I saw that it has information panels written in Braille.

Cheers

Andreas
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Re: wheelchair = hiking

Mark Wagner
In reply to this post by Nick Bolten
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 13:57:25 -0700
Nick Bolten <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > IMO wheelchair=yes means accessible for most basic wheelchairs.  
>
> Yes, but it's something that is frequently difficult to estimate.

After learning that the trail from the Old Faithful viewing area to
Castle Geyser isn't considered wheelchair-accessible, I've given up on
the idea that wheelchair-accessibility is something that mere mortals
are capable of determining.  To my untrained eye, it's nearly perfect:
four meters wide, quality asphalt paving, no cross slope, and
effectively flat.  But apparently that "effectively" isn't good enough:
an elevation gain of five meters over the course of a 700-meter run is
enough to defeat a wheelchair user.

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